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Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: How much of the work of Caranua was outsourced? Ms Higgins mentioned something about that earlier.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Outsourced as in work being done by outside organisations.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: None.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes. How many agency staff would it have provided?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Twelve. On page 6 of the briefing note that Ms Higgins provided, there is table 1 and I ask if it could be put up on screen. I want to raise an issue that is important in terms of doing a look back exercise which, unfortunately for us, is all that we can do. It has been acknowledged that the level of the service for survivors was poor and appalling in the past and, for them, this adds...

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Can Ms Higgins stick to the question I asked? I draw her attention to table 2, on the screen, which covers applications by years and associated activity. In 2015, the cost of salaries was €1.3 million, having jumped from €791,000 the previous year. The cost of salaries was €1.3 million in 2015 and €1.492 million in 2016. If we note the activity, 1,228 people...

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: -----which was fewer than half number the previous year yet staff costs have increased. In 2014, 3,821 applied for the service and at that time the cost of staff salaries was only €791,000. At a time when 3,821 were applying for the service, the cost of staff salaries was €791,000 and at a time when 585 people were applying for the service the cost of staff salaries is...

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: I do not doubt that is Ms Higgins's intention but the phrase "we are where we are" refers to a situation where the overall cost here is €1.5 billion of the overall cost of dealing with abuse.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: We dealt earlier with the contributions we are getting from the religious congregations, which is quite a small amount. Again, I do not accept the argument that we are where we are. Why do we always end up in that space? We get the forecasting wrong. We did not anticipate the level of activities there would be when the organisation was set up. The same problems keep recurring. People...

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: I accept that. I have two more questions. The first concerns the counselling services that were provided. Were some of those provided by organisations funded exclusively by the religious orders, or organisations which are an extension of religious orders?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Would survivors have been made aware that Towards Healing was funded by and was an extension of the religious orders?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: I am not saying there was a secret. I am asking if, when the service was provided, people were made aware, given the sensitivities involved. Does Ms Higgins understand what I am asking? Were they made aware?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Does Ms Higgins think they should have been made aware?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Will Ms Higgins find out if they were made aware?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Will Ms Higgins find out for the committee if they were made aware?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Then it comes down to choice.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: It is important that people be given information in that respect. Does Caranua have a budget for foreign travel for staff and others?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Where in the United Kingdom?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: When Ms Higgins says survivors-----

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