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Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: But Ms Higgins's chairman did and he talked about the treatment of people. I asked him to elaborate.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Not necessarily. He elaborated a little more than that. If the chairman is saying it was "an appalling service" but the chief executive officer does not agree, that troubles me. Why is there a conflict in this regard?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: I would rather that Ms Higgins did not defend anything; I would rather that she would be honest with us when questions are put if she-----

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: By extension, that is not a good service.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Because if someone is waiting too long, it cannot be described as a good service.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Would Mr. Ó Foghlú describe the service as "an appalling service"?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: I am sorry.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: I will not be unfair to anybody. I heard exactly what Mr. O'Callaghan said and I understand the context.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: I understand the context in which Mr. O'Callaghan said this but from its conception until now at some point he said the service was "appalling". I understand the context in which he said that and the time to which he referred. I acknowledge that but I am putting the same question to Mr. Ó Foghlú.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Given the pressures on staffing levels, the high volume of requests, the difficulty in processing all the information, the tension with the survivors who were trying to access services as quickly as possible, and the organisation not being able to deliver on its mandate, would that have led to an adversarial system?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Who was impatient?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: "Frustrated" would perhaps be a more appropriate word.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Okay. I want to draw Ms Higgins's attention to two areas. She spoke about consultancy firms that were appointed to do certain jobs of work. Mazars was one of them and Capita was the other.

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Okay. How much did Mazars-----

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: An organisational review, which was essentially to tell Ms Higgins how to do her job. Would that be a fair assessment?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Were terms of reference set out for Caranua? A mandate was given to Ms Higgins in terms of her role. Was that given by the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: The legislation does that. I am wondering why Ms Higgins would have a needed a company to inform her as to what she needed to do. She was employed because she applied for the job, she has a certain skill set, she went for interview and got the job. Other people were working there and with the mandate she was given, she should have been able to do her job. Why was there a need to employ...

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Some €24,000 was spent on consultants. Has Ms Higgins project management experience?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Have other staff in the organisation project management experience?

Public Accounts Committee: Caranua Financial Statements 2014 and 2015 (13 Apr 2017)

David Cullinane: Ms Higgins can understand why these questions would be put. This seems to be coming up a great deal in organisations funded by the State. We employ people to do a job and they go off and employ consultants at more cost.

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