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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Okay. My next question relates to the State pathology laboratory. The Accounting Officer in that case told us they were going to build a State pathology laboratory, but they could not commit the money over the years - although they had spent €3.3 million on it - and they knocked it. I would like to know what process is followed in the Department to allow such a decision to be made....

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Are they obliged to consult the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Would Mr. Watt be annoyed with them?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: I want to ask Mr. Watt about Poolbeg. An examination of the spend on Poolbeg is not covered by this committee. It is a huge public concern that this money has been spent and it seems that nothing will happen. There is no public scrutiny of that money. We decided this morning that we would ask for permission to investigate the €108 million. I wonder whether the Department of Public...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: It is taxpayers' money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: It was collected by Revenue on behalf of the State. The State cannot sit on its hands in this case. Some mechanism has to be found to carry out an investigation into how that €96 million was spent. If I were in Mr. Watt's shoes, I would be saying to the Accounting Officer that they need to report to some authority, such as this committee. The job of the Department of Public...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: I am not worried about that aspect of the matter. I am more concerned with trying to understand the role of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the officials in the Department who come here every week and hear all of these stories. I am just repeating what has gone on over the past few weeks. I am trying to find out from Mr. Watt, in a reasonable way, what happens after...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Would the Department not require the Accounting Officers to provide a comprehensive response to these matters? Would it not insist on it and then inform the Committee of Public Accounts of what needs to be done?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: We are trying to work with Mr. Watt.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Is Mr. Watt happy to proceed?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: I have a number of issues that I wish to clear up and I will address my questions to Mr. Paul Quinn. We questioned the OPW commissioners on procurement related issues when they came before the committee some time ago. They suggested that some of the staff would go across to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, having finished the procurement work in the OPW, and would continue...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: I will now deal in general terms with other issues. Officials from the Department of Finance attend the Committee of Public Accounts every week, and I presume they report to the Department on the issues that were raised. I have raised with the HSE the question of purchasing a proper financial management system. The HSE's response is that it has made the submission to the Department of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: We were told at a previous hearing with the HSE that the proposal is with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for sanction.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: The HSE has made a proposal about what it believes is the right system and the right approach. I have raised this issue a number of times because we have been told there has been a process in place in which they are pursuing the provision of a new financial system of management and that it is with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: I am not characterising it like that, I am trying to establish exactly at what stage the proposal is at because the HSE has told us one story -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: The HSE has not been doing its own thing very well. When the HSE appears before the Committee of Public Accounts and we ask for different sets of figures, it is very difficult to drill down into the figures because they are coming from all over the place.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Is the HSE proposal with the procurement section, Mr. Quinn?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: Will Mr. Quinn check and let us know and give us a timeframe, as we are anxious to see that a system is put in place?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

John McGuinness: In terms of the decisions on money that has been spent and subsequent difficulties that arose, refer for example, to Carrisbrook House, Ballsbridge, an office leased by the Government of which a substantial part is vacant and the vacant space is costing €1.2 million. It has been like that for a number of years. When an issue like that arises at the Committee of Public Accounts at...

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