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Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: I call Deputy Alan Kelly.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: We are now in ten-minute slots and there will be second slots, if required.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Ten minutes have elapsed.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: The point is well made.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Love has indicated that he wants to come in.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: All the members have indicated for the first round. We will be coming back to second speakers. Before we move on to that, I want to take up the issue of the cost. I have difficulty with what I am hearing and I want to tease it out. Instead of looking at it from the bottom up, we will start from the top. Are the liabilities of UCC on the State's balance sheet?

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: No, UCC.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Could Mr. Brownlee just say that about EUROSTAT again?

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: In Ireland.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is the Department of that view also? That is the current understanding of the situation. That is important. Had they been on the State's balance sheet, it would have changed it.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is. Their consolidated accounts have been presented to us. A few phrases have been used in the course of this morning's meeting in particular. IMI is a 100%-owned subsidiary of UCC. It is part of the college. While it has a separate legal identity, it is part of UCC. If anything goes wrong there, is it ultimately UCC's problem because it is 100% the parent company. Is that agreed?...

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: They would be netted off.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: When it comes to UCC's consolidated accounts, this movement of funds from the subsidiary in one part of the group to another is netted out of the accounts because it is internal within the group to start with. UCC says it has a new source of income, but it is moving from one part of the group to the other. The extra money is generated by the activities of IMI.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: In the group, based on-----

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: -----its continuous-----

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: I want to tease this out so that we are clear when we come to our report. What caused confusion the last day was that when Deputy Cullinane and I both asked what it cost, Mr. Collins used the word "nothing".

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: That throws the public. I want to tease that out. UCC seems to have distinguished here today between the assets, as in the 13 acres for which the money was paid, and the IMI as a company, which cost the university nothing.

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: There was splitting of hairs, to use that phrase. When people talked about the IMI, the public's understanding was technically the company and the campus. However, Mr. Collins is saying the company cost nothing but the campus cost €20 million. What was in the company if there was none of these assets?

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: In other words, the university is telling us that IMI has done a Clerys job. It has taken all the assets out of the company and left the name. That is actually what the witnesses are telling me. The Irish Management Institute has done what I would call "a Clerys job" here. The wealth and assets of the organisation were taken to one side and the company was just a name. It is just like...

Public Accounts Committee: University College Cork and University of Limerick: Financial Statements (22 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: The accounts state that the State grant from the Department was €47 million and that €43 million of academic fees came through the HEA's student fee provision. Research was a significant source of income but State and semi-State companies provided €55 million of that. The EU provided €13 million of that. I am going from the university's accounts here. That is...

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