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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Each hospital would be required to sign a service level agreement for 2013 on the understanding that expenditure for 2013 would have been managed within the available budget. Has all that been done?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: It says here that each hospital would be required to sign a service level agreement for 2013 on the understanding that the expenditure for 2013 would have to be managed within the available budget. I am asking whether that is being done. I understand that it is not.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: What is says here - that each hospital would be required to sign a service level agreement and to be managed within the available budget. That is not being done.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Each and every hospital?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Were they in place in 2013?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: But they are not operating within their budget.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Yes, that is okay. As regards changes to hospital budgets in process, the HSE has adopted a new approach on developing budgets for individual hospitals. Budget allocations are now related to project spend. Mr. O'Brien is familiar with that paragraph.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: No, it is not being done.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: But it is not being done in full.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: It is because of the budget. Generally speaking, we have dealt with all the other stuff. As I said to Mr. O'Brien, it is a business. On all the major fronts, in my opinion, you have failed. As a representative of the shareholders, I am sure if they were all here they would probably look at Dr. McLoughlin, because he negotiates the budget in-house before it gets political on the other...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: No, I am sorry, Deputy. Let me finish. I will let you in again.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: What is going on is shocking. This is not a political point which is for the House. It is an administrative point. In terms of administration, Dr. McLoughlin and Mr. O'Brien have failed the public. That is now a widely held view. That is what leads me to believe that the HSE is not fit for purpose. The earlier part of this meeting was similar to the exchange Dr. McLoughlin had with...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Was the drugs figure in 2012 the €124 million that was mentioned?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: I am taking each issue separately.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Just €9 million over.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: I am just giving the picture now. Is €9 million the overall figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Am I correct that the HSE did not achieve the savings it wanted from the drugs cost savings scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Yes, or thereafter.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: The savings were not achieved back then.

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