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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: And the Secretary General.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: Were there casual or informal conversations saying "we are looking at this, we have not got it ready yet and we will let people know when we have"?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: I thank both of the witnesses.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: I have just a couple of supplementary questions. On one reading, the letter to Trinity was a proposal and not an agreement. The term “proposal” is loose enough. That is the benign interpretation. However, there is the signature signing up to it. Does Mr. Watt see it in the terms that there is a difference between a proposal and an agreement? What was the signature about?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: If he were to be seconded, this is what it would look like.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: Okay. There are a couple of things. I am aware the Secretary General of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth completed their term of office on 18 January. The Secretary General of the Department of Education completed their term of office clearly before their retirement date. The Secretary General is chief executive officer. How long is that term of office?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: Can it be extended?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: CEO of a Department is a pretty big responsibility. I absolutely understand, and perhaps it should be communicated a little bit better, that the kind of experience, knowledge, information and expertise a Secretary General would accumulate and garner over time in running a Department, depending on the Department, but many Departments have budgets of billions, deserves to be shared and is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: It is the same model, the only difference being that Mr. Watt was going to apply this to deputy Secretary General level. Dr. Holohan does not have to answer this, but is he near 40 years as a public servant?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: Is he far off 40 years?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: No. We all know what age Dr. Holohan is.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: No, we all know what age Dr. Holohan is. It is the 40 years, in other words-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: Okay. Contrary to previous questions, this is provided for in a Government decision for Secretary Generals. Those Departments might help us and might help the internal inquiry by outlining the process by which the Secretary Generals of those Departments were seconded, as it were, into two different university sectors. The terms and conditions involved in doing this in a State-funded...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: Except in relation to deputy Secretary General level, which this was.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: It comes back to the communications and our star player here. To some degree, in olden days, Robert, no one would know who you were.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: No one should know who you are.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: Okay. There will be reviews of books and things like that. Some people have been described as bullies, thugs and all the rest of it. Some people have been said to be robust in getting their own way. It was an interesting and fraught period. However, the communications piece just seemed to misunderstand not the nature of the position, but the person who Mr. Watt was seeking to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: There were accusations that Ministers were not informed, but I think Mr. Watt would say that he had not got it to the point where the Minister ought to have been informed. There will be others who may be here sitting beside me who might take issue with that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

John Lahart: That is my summary. It would be helpful, in terms of the internal inquiry, if the two Departments - the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Education - provided a few details of the process they followed in terms of their Secretary Generals going to the university sector.