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Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (22 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: The point has been made that average life expectancy will increase again in the years to come. When looking at health, Professor McMahon referred in his submission to a "review of health spending independently led and supported by IGEES economists". Will he elaborate on that?

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (22 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: Does Dr. Casey wish to elaborate on the independent study I mentioned?

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (22 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: That is a good point. It is something we will take on board and be conscious of in our recommendations after this round of discussions about the whole ELS issue. It is a bad night for a meeting because the finance Bill is going through the Dáil. I again thank the witnesses for making themselves available and placing on record their responses, views and opinions on the matter, and for...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (22 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: We will do that.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (22 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: It should be broken down for us, as members, to allow us to be in a position to comment and reflect on to ensure that adequate and better provision is made.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (22 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: It is difficult to question spending in health. We are pilloried for questioning and seeking value for money in the health sector because there should be an almost unending pot to deal with everything the sector is presented with. For the likes of the CEO to say the HSE is not getting enough money raises the question of where is his responsibility. What provisions has he made? What...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Business of Select Committee (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: I propose that the committee go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: I welcome from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Mr. John Kinnane, acting assistant secretary, expenditure policy division, and Ms Jasmina Behan, assistant secretary, work and pensions division. Before we begin, I will explain the limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: I thank Mr. Kinnane. Of the members who are joining us online and in the committee room, I will go to members who are present in the committee room first. Deputy Conway-Walsh will be first.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: Am I correct that the Department of Social Protection's Estimate earlier this year was understated when it came to the budget itself or was it holding it in reserve? I am not saying withholding information but some information was not clear earlier in the year.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: Based on their discussions and negotiations around-----

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: Is there any provision for the pay talks starting in June?

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: I will put a question whiIe we are waiting to see if Deputy Durkan or Deputy Michael Healy-Rae want to ask questions. In regard to the health Vote in 2022 the ELS was described in three components: expenditure, report allocation from central pay agreement provision carry-over and other ELS pressures and demographics. In 2023 this reduced to two components, just central pay agreement...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: I note that but to be honest I do not necessarily accept it. If the Oireachtas was adjudged to be properly briefed two years ago with three components, why is it not briefed with three components this time around? There may be internal reasons but we are a parliamentary budgetary oversight committee and we have a job to reflect the views and opinions of members not only in this committee...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: I appreciate where Mr. Kinnane is coming from.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: We need to know what they are. That is all I am saying to Mr. Kinnane. In layman's terms the ELS has basically been standing still. If we want to offer the same service next year as we offered last year it will cost us an extra €700 million to do that. The reason for that is due to pay increases, pay agreements, and the revision of contracts associated with external help to deliver...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: That is fair enough, but when we look at this budget, this figure and the explanation, we are left with no idea of what the components were. At least three years ago there was some breakdown but now we have no breakdown. We are not carrying out our duty to extract that information in order to impart it to those that we represent, and that is all we want to do. It has been stated that...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: A vote has been called in the Dáil but please proceed.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: I hear what Mr. Kinnane says, which is basically that there was not agreement between the stakeholders on what the figure was made up of or there was unanimity.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Existing Levels of Service Costs: Discussion (15 Nov 2023)

Barry Cowen: We need to wrap up.

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