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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: We will beg to differ on that. As Dr. McLoughlin said, the figure is running to €500 million this year. That is what he has been told.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Agency workers are now being used more than ever before. Is that correct? Are they costing more?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: And costing more?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: With regard to the absenteeism rate, the target was 3.5%. It is 4.7% now.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Is the €619 million in savings mentioned related to the national service plan?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: The €666 million has gone down. On the section 38s, it is pretty clear from what Mr. O’Brien is telling us, in layman’s language, that we will end up with what he describes as red circles all over the place because the contractual arrangement between some of the agencies and their staff is in place or there will be sufficient evidence provided to cause HSE legal...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: On section 38s, Mr. O'Brien probably would not have got so far with his investigation had it not been for the public uproar caused by the hearings we had here. Section 39s are in the same vein. Both section 38s and section 39s gave a clear indication to the public that the HSE had no handle on how either section was behaving in terms of accountability.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: The HSE was almost negligent in terms of the past and compliance with sections 38 and 39. That is why we are where we are at today. It has been a painstaking exercise that will probably yield little or nothing, apart from good governance for the future, compliance for as long as the red circle individuals exist in their employment and, thereafter, possibly a reduction in the salary to what...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Just to help Mr. O'Brien with his investigation into the matter, I am told that-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Why would Mr. O'Brien not investigate it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: I do not see anything mysterious about it but I would like Mr. O'Brien to investigate the view held locally that it was not advertised, that it was not sanctioned by Mr. O'Brien, that it is only one person, that it is €258,000 per annum and that a grade 8 salary in that region is approximately €80,000 per annum. Am I correct in saying that it would be a grade 8 position?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: At what would that be?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: As it stands, the HSE is over double that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: So Mr. O'Brien will investigate it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: For me, that is investigation.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Mr. O'Brien might investigate this then. How much does a locum cost? Let me put it a different way. Can a locum earn what a consultant would earn per annum in a three or four month period? Is that a possibility?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Over a period of four years, 25 different locums have been in and out of Letterkenny hospital. It is probably the only hospital in Europe where there is one consultant in the haematology unit, where there are periods where the consultant was out sick and there was no consultant cover, and where the cost of all of this could have been dealt with better had they had the appropriate person...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: I ask the HSE to give me a written overview of that. Returning to the budget, it was stated by the HSE that it is facing serious problems or significant financial challenges this year in relation to the budget. At this stage, by comparison, the HSE is three times over the deficit of last year. What is the forecast for the rest of the year? Has Dr. McLoughlin been informed?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 21 - Budget Management in Health Service Executive
Chapter 22 - Eligibility for Medical Cards
(12 Jun 2014)

John McGuinness: Some €500 million?

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