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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Where does the director of finance get his information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: There are 50 employees in the internal audit section of the HSE. How many are in the finance section?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Does that include both the audit section and the finance section?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: The point is that roughly 500 people work in this area. Nobody in that section, even when the board was there, raised the issue relating to arrangements for section 38 and 39 agencies. From the start of the HSE in 2005, some 500 people were employed to examine financial figures and nobody examined the section 38 and section 39 matters.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Nobody took control of this. The discussion this morning has seen a great deal of doublespeak and double standards. The issue of taking a radical approach was raised earlier but, when it comes to red circles, the HSE will not follow its own stance on the CRC. We have not received section 38 reports yet but it seems the salaries that are out of kilter with regard to section 38 will be...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Did the audit committee raise a flag on these issues?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Did the audit committee raise any issues on the CRC from 2005?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: If so, the HSE did nothing about it. That is what I find frustrating about this matter. The HSE knew that it was allocating substantial funds, but it did not follow the money. Now that this has been discovered on foot of hearings held by the committee, it is trying to apply salary scales retrospectively. At the same time and within its own organisation, it is willing to red circle these...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: The Deputy is out of time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: The Deputy should conclude now.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: A number of other Deputies have indicated they wish to contribute, but I suggest we take a 15 minute break first.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: May we have the copies mentioned by Mr. Healy? In regard to the e-mails referred to Deputy Dowds that were not responded to, can we have an assurance that a response will issue to those people?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: I thank Deputy McDonald. I call Deputy Dowds.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: At an advanced stage, I ask Mr. Timmins to inform us of the progress.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Mr. Cregan might explain.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: I ask the Deputy to conclude.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Indeed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Go ahead.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Mr. Goulding does not know the detail just yet. We can revert to Mr. Cregan and, perhaps, Ms McGuinness on it. I just want to go on to Deputy-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: I want to call Deputy O'Donnell.

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