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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Is Mr. Ó Cualáin also aware that he said that he felt duped about that paragraph? He took assurances at face value and he felt duped.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Given what Mr. Ó Cualáin now knows, does he agree that Mr. Kelly was duped?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Does Mr. Ó Cualáin agree that in any organisation, especially An Garda Síochána, one would not expect the head of internal audit to feel duped at any time and that would be a red line issue? Internal audit staff should not at any time feel duped and they should get full co-operation. Would he accept at least that if that was the view of the head of internal audit, that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Assurances were given in the Commissioner's footnote in 2011. Those recommendations were not implemented. Who had responsibility for implementing them?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: With respect, Mr. Ó Cualáin has read the report and he understands the issues intimately. He knows exactly what letter I am talking about. This was sent to Mr. Kelly by the CAO with a footnote from the Commissioner. Mr. Ó Cualáin is intimately aware of the letter and of the report in which recommendations were made. We discussed this with the Commissioner and she was...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Would it have been only the deputy Commissioner or would other people in the organisation have been responsible?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I imagine Mr. McCabe and Ms McMahon who were responsible for the day-to-day management of the Garda Training College would have had a role in implementing the recommendations.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. McCabe was in the training college at the time but he did not even see the report. What was his position?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Turning to Mr. Dunne, we got a note, which I gave to the secretariat, of the second meeting of the steering group. It came from the head of legal, Mr. Ruane. It says that on 6 July 2015 the executive director of human resources, Mr. Barrett, delivered a report to the CAO and that the report was to be given to the audit committee in July of that year. Why was that report commissioned?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: For what purpose?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: What we know from the internal audit reports, which Mr. Dunne has not read, is that internal audit is quite critical of him in that regard. When Mr. Barrett was before the committee, he was also quite critical because his view is that Mr. Dunne should have informed the audit committee in July. Mr. Dunne briefed the committee at the September meeting under any other business.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: A copy of the report was not circulated to members in advance. When Mr. Ó Cualáin appeared before the committee previously, I asked him about that and he said that it was his understanding that the comprehensive briefing was given at the September internal audit committee meeting. That was his view of the minutes. He was not at the meeting but that was his view. Mr. Howard, who...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. Ó Cualáin was not at the meeting.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: But Mr. Ó Cualáin has now heard from Mr. Howard who was at the meeting.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. Howard is chairman of the committee.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: That is his view and Mr. Ó Cualáin has heard it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I will get to Mr. Dunne.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Before I get to Mr. Ó Cualáin about the matter, I have one last question for Mr. Dunne because it mirrors very much what happened at the internal audit committee meeting. Further down the note that can be viewed on the screen there is an account of what he said. It reads: "The CAO wished to make it very clear that there is no basis to suggest any misappropriation or mishandling,...

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