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Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I expect the Deloitte report was commissioned because there was disagreement. Is that not the case?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: On that point and because it follows on from the question from Teachta Aylward regarding whistleblowers, Mr. O'Brien was asked earlier about the importance of giving an apology in respect of Grace.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: My understanding is that no apology has been given to the whistleblower or whistleblowers in this case. Is that an oversight on the part of the HSE? Does Mr. O'Brien wish to take this opportunity to apologise to the whistleblower? I am sure that will be important on his part. It is my understanding, although I may be wrong, that until now the HSE, as a corporate body, and Mr. O'Brien, as...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: However, Mr. O'Brien offers an apology regarding the first matter on which an agreement has been reached. He accepts, therefore, that there was a failing on the part of his organisation.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: To make clear, Mr. O'Brien is now offering an apology to the service provider and whistleblower for that element of the funding.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I need to be absolutely clear on any potential for interference with the work of the independent report, which is ongoing and on which Mr. O'Brien has answered questions. I accept the HSE has commissioned this report and is seeking to expedite its publication. I accept the role of Mr. Purcell and Mr. Mitchell. I asked Mr. O'Brien whether anyone on behalf of the HSE, as a corporate body,...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: We are reaching an important point as that would have involved representing the corporate body.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It certainly would be representing a division within the organisation.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: We will park the corporate body side because we may be confusing ourselves with language. Is Mr. O'Brien saying it is possible that divisions within the HSE may have offered an opinion on the terms of reference or that they were not happy with aspects of the draft report?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes, but it is possible?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Let us not use the word "interfere". The point is whether anyone sought in any way to influence or critique the draft report. All I am asking is whether it is possible that divisions in the HSE had copies of the report, were unhappy with elements of it and offered a critique of elements of it, rightly or wrongly.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: How many members of staff in the HSE are subject to an internal examination by the organisation relating to their work in respect of the Grace case?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Can Mr. O'Brien provide us with that information?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It was important that Mr. O'Brien apologised earlier to the whistleblower in respect of one element of the funding and the service provider. I do not wish to tell Mr. O'Brien what was said when the whistleblower came before a private meeting of this committee for 90 minutes. Given the wider treatment of the whistleblower, there would also be merit in the HSE apologising, not just for the...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: That will deal with funding but I am talking about the overall treatment of this person.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: A further apology may come, depending on the outcome of the report.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: We are examining the financial statements of the HSE for 2015 and 2016. As well as Mr. Tony O'Brien, director general, we are joined from the HSE by Mr. Ray Mitchell; Mr. Stephen Mulvany, chief financial officer and interim deputy director general; and Ms Mairéad Dolan, assistant chief financial officer. We are also joined by Mr. Greg Dempsey, assistant secretary at the Department of...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I think we all need second and third opportunities because there is so much we could talk about and so many questions we would ask the witnesses. I thank them for their presence. Earlier, Mr. O'Brien rightly said that he could not be expected to be across the detail of what is happening in every hospital and I would not expect him to be. Luckily for me, I do know the detail concerning...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I accept that. Obviously, in situations where we have spare capacity in public hospitals in one area, and I would imagine this is part of the logic of the hospital groups that have been established, it would make sense for patients who are waiting longer in one hospital to be seen in another public hospital where there is capacity.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I can see the logic to that. What I am trying to understand is situations where we do not have capacity. Mr. O'Brien mentioned orthopaedics as one example but there are many examples not just in Waterford, but across all public hospitals where there are capacity issues and patients are then being treated in private hospitals. Has the HSE done any cost analysis in regard to whether it would...

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