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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: I thank Ms Ní Mhainín. Next is Dr. Hanna from Durham law school.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: That concludes the opening comments. They have been very helpful. The witnesses have the benefit of coming in as the second round, so most have presumably heard what was said the previous day. I will give them the opportunity to respond to that and engage on those points. We heard in a couple of the opening statements that juries should be abolished. At least one or two speakers said...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Kealey.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: I do not believe Mr. O'Reilly has spoken yet.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: That is very helpful but how would Ms Ní Mhainín define a SLAPP in 30 or 60 seconds? I seek a bird's eye view for the benefit of everybody around the table so that we are all on the same page.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: That does not necessarily answer the question. What does SLAPP stand for then? It is an acronym.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: Is the term "public participation" intended to mean the articulation of a particular view, perhaps a political view or a questioning of authority?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: It is public participation, something that has been said. If I take a jar of pickles off the shelf in my local Spar store, the manager calls out "Stop, thief" and I sue him stating I will throw in a claim for €1 million, that is obviously not a SLAPP. Must it be a public pronouncement, usually or possibly political, or a journalist either questioning of authority or something of that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: Politicians and public representatives

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: One of the hallmarks to which Ms Mhainín referred is where the individual is sued as well as the organisation. That would definitely have a more chilling effect, so I imagine it would be a SLAPP. I note Dr. Foley had indicated but, in the interests of time and in fairness to every speaker, I will move on to the next round of questions. Perhaps Dr. Foley will have an opportunity to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: Dr. Foley wanted to get in. Does he want to reply to that question?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: I was asking if he wanted to reply to the Senator.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: Please do not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: The clock is out but I am going to take a few others who have particular responses to Senator Ruane's comments. On the halfway house idea, I believe there are a couple of halfway houses emerging from this debate. One is the halfway house in which there is not an automatic right to a jury trial. Ms Ní Mhainín mentioned that this right was done away with in England and Wales. Mr....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: It is an alternative because, at the moment, juries decide both whether a person has been defamed and what award he or she should get. This is only a proposal being floated for the purposes of these deliberations but the change would be that the jury would determine whether defamation had occurred and its role would end there. The judge would then decide what award is appropriate in terms...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: To tease this out, the reason it is being posited is that the commentary has consistently been that juries are unpredictable, inconsistent and irrational. These things have been suggested. If that is the case, a compromise proposal would be to take the function of awarding damages away from the jury and give it to a legal expert, the judge, while retaining a jury of a person's peers to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: I am sure Mr. Kealey will agree, as he mentioned it in his submission, that it is a non-starter for people who are very poor but many lawyers will engage on a no foal, no fee basis. What can happen sometimes is that people will run a case despite having very limited resources because the lawyers will say that if they win, they will take their fees but if they do not win, they will not taken...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Foley. I am just conscious of time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed) (4 Jul 2023)

James Lawless: I will allow a couple of more minutes and we will have the second round then. I am going to put a point to Dr. Foley myself before I let Deputy Farrell back in if that is okay.

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