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Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I am not accepting the amendment.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The committee will consist of at least five persons. A minority of insiders will be represented, if one includes the Minister's nominee as a quasi-insider. The structure envisaged is one on which there will always be a majority of non-members of the Garda Síochána from which the chairperson will be selected.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The Garda Commissioner is the Accounting Officer and this committee's function is to advise the Garda Commissioner on financial matters relating to his or her functions, to report in writing to him or her and to provide the Minister with a copy of each report. If ordinary members of the Garda Síochána, however defined, were to be represented on the committee, it would have to be through...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Senator Leyden is technically correct but that is as far as it will go.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: In a sense the Senator is right as there is no obligation to publish the committee's reports. However, they will be available to the Comptroller and Auditor General, if he or she believes they contain matters that should be brought to the attention of the Committee of Public Accounts. If every audit committee report into suspected malpractice was prepared on the basis that it had to be made...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The internal auditing process may do spot-checks of various kinds. If the intention is to prevent fraud, misappropriation or misapplication of moneys, publishing how this is achieved will weaken the effectiveness of the audit committee rather than strengthening it. If the report states that 48 spot-checks were done on the collection of parking fines while none was done on gun licence fees,...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I do not see what the Oireachtas would do with that material. The Constitution provides for a Comptroller and Auditor General who will have access to all of the material. If it contains anything of interest, I have no doubt the Comptroller and Auditor General will draw it to the attention of the Committee of Public Accounts. If appropriate, it will come into the public domain in that context.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I am grateful to Senators for pointing out significant improvement in this area on my watch and that of my predecessor. Garda reports are being submitted in comprehensive form reasonably promptly by comparison with the situation in the past. I will not be tempted into making unfair comparisons as to how bad the past was which would excite party animosity.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: We will leave it like that. I thank the Commissioner and his predecessors for bringing about the improvement under discussion. When I took office, annual reporting of crime figures, which is a matter of some significance though by no means the sole subject of the Commissioner's report, took place in the public domain up to 18 months after the period to which they related had ended. In effect,...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The purpose of this amendment is to provide that the Garda Commissioner shall ensure that the statistical information is made available not only to the Minister but also to the Central Statistics Office. This follows on from my acceptance of a recommendation from the expert group on crime statistics that a central crime statistics unit should be established, and I decided it should be...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Senator Cummins talks about spin. When I receive the quarterly figures I study them carefully and then I make a totally vain attempt to convey the truth to the people. Whatever I do, my good friends in the media immediately engage in a massive distortion of the figures. That is what happens on every occasion. If there is a decrease of 4% in overall crime, it is reported that rape incidents...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: No. That is not spin. I am simply reminding people that there are other aspects to be considered. If I claim crime has decreased by 5% people must look carefully at the individual components of that. In all the statements I have produced there is not a whit of spin in them.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Unfortunately I was unable to be present yesterday because I was elsewhere. However, I have had an opportunity to read through the proceedings of the House so I have an idea where people were coming from in yesterday's debate. I thank Senator Jim Walsh for his very useful proposals which I will study carefully. I emphasise to the House that I do not want to be completely prescriptive, but...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I will deal with that last point. Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas have absolute privilege as a matter of constitutional law and cannot be impugned in the courts for what they say in either House. There are strict controls over how that privilege is managed and Members cannot lay waste all around them because they are feeling malicious and want to get even with a few people. We must...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: In some cases the chair of the committee may decide that if the discussion continues on certain lines, he must exclude the public because he or she does not wish to have a person's reputation discussed in public. I do not want a situation to arise where a majority can trample down somebody's rights and force the committee down the wrong line. For example, if 51% of the members decided to use...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Again, that can be dealt with in guidelines.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I take quite seriously the point made by Senator Ryan. If it were to be read into this section that these meetings could only take place on a Monday or Friday because Members of the Oireachtas would be liable to attend the Oireachtas on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, that would be somewhat retrograde and would be a constraint. My intention — maybe I have not achieved it in the manner...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: ——at the drop of a hat and attend a meeting if that is agreed but a Government Deputy or Senator is much more constrained in what he or she can or cannot do.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I agree. I do not think we should be too idealistic about this. I will consider that point again. It is not that I want local committees to be dominated by public representatives who are Oireachtas Members; I did not want the end of the dual mandate to mean that nobody in these Houses would ever have experience of these committees or have any input in them. I will consider the matter further...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage. (7 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Perception is very important. I am not sure if the Director of Public Prosecutions is prohibited from joining a political party. Perhaps civil servants are not so entitled. There is no law which states that a judge shall not be a member of a political party but there is clear legal convention that it would be a sacking offence if he or she were to join one. The same applies to gardaí. They...

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