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Written Answers — Department of Housing, Planning, and Local Government: Unfinished Housing Developments Data (17 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: 602. To ask the Minister for Housing, Planning, and Local Government the 430 housing estates that remain unfinished, by county; the estimated number of occupied houses or persons living in these unfinished estates; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43676/17]

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: The first item on our agenda is the minutes of the meeting of 5 October, 2017. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. Apologies have been received from Deputy Josepha Madigan. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee and he is accompanied today by Mark Brady. The next item is matters arising from the aforementioned...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I will move on and take these two items together. We are also looking at No. 790C, which is correspondence from the person known as the whistleblower who dealt with the Grace case and who works for the service provider. We will discuss that correspondence too, but I would ask members to refrain from putting the names of any of those involved into the public arena.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Who said that?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: What is our basis for saying that?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: The letter from-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: But we have not seen it.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Are there any other comments?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: I thank members for those comments. We received the Deloitte report, noted it and said at our last meeting that we did not have time to consider it the last time we discussed it. I think we can agree to publish it today. We held off publishing it the last day. It has been sent to us with the consent of the Farrelly commission so everybody can assume that it has been sent to the Committee...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am moving on to that matter. I appreciate everything the whistleblower has said. We would not be here discussing it without the whistleblower, who has done an enormous service not just to Grace but in highlighting the issues that have come to light as a result of this over a period of years. In addition to that, the whistleblower, who has written to us, was personally involved in this...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am being very clear in what I am saying now.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I just want-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Up to the time it agreed the settlement.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: The High Court.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: We have already agreed to make time available when the HSE is in to discuss the section 38 and 39 bodies. To be clear, the terms of reference, and I am reading from the report, was an independent review of the cost of care from 2009 to 2016 of a specific individual in the care of the service provider and the funding provided by the HSE to the service provider. The letter from the...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Every one of us will agree that the HSE commissioned this report, set the terms of reference, approved all of the drafts, inserted much of its own views into the drafts and paid for the report. Therefore, we do not accept for a minute-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: The Committee of Public Accounts can unanimously agree this is not an independent report. It is a document procured by the HSE from Deloitte at its request. The HSE may choose to use that word but no reasonable person can use it. I think we are agreed on that.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: We have to be conscious. The service provider has gone to the High Court on this as well. Despite all of the issues, it has settled the issue. I want to read one paragraph from the executive summary. Deloitte reminds the HSE of its letter of engagement, particularly in relation to confidentiality. This precludes the HSE from disclosing this report to any third party without Deloitte's...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Coming back to Deloitte, there is a confidentiality agreement. I am not casting any views on Deloitte. What I am saying is that we have to work through the HSE, which is the body accountable to us. I ask members to consider this matter. The HSE is coming into us in a few weeks and we still have time. We need to be clear on how we are going to deal with that meeting when it happens.

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