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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I am asking the Commissioner whether she regards it as acceptable that the head of the finance directorate would threaten legal action against the head of internal audit and seek to influence his report. He asked him specifically to amend this report. He was very clear that if Mr. Kelly did not amend his draft report, he would take legal action against him.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It is not a submission. It is a legal threat.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: The Commissioner is not answering the question. I ask the Vice Chairman to direct the Commissioner to answer the question. Irrespective of whether it was a submission, it was a letter that the head of the finance directorate wrote to internal audit. In response to a previous Teachta, the Commissioner already said that she values and understands the importance of the work of internal audit...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I did not ask the Commissioner that. I asked if she finds that acceptable.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It is a straightforward question. Does the Commissioner find it acceptable for the letter to state, "Consequently I am reserving the right to issue legal proceedings against you for defamation unless you amend your report accordingly"?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I am asking the Commissioner for her opinion because the buck stops with her. We have everybody in here and she is in here today. This was one of the time periods in which she had responsibility where Mr. Kelly feels he was frustrated in his work. I put this to the Commissioner, as the Accounting Officer. Is she satisfied that it was appropriate for the head of the finance directorate to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: The Commissioner is not prepared to say it was wrong that the head of the finance directorate threatened legal action.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: We have been presented with the minutes of the first steering group meeting. There is a reference to Mr. Culhane saying that he was shocked by what had just been said by Mr. Ken Ruane, who is head of legal, when Mr. Ruane said he would need to seek the advice of the Attorney General in respect of some issues. This is on page 3 of the letter. The secretariat has it. It states Mr. Culhane...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It is the minutes of the meeting. I got a copy of it from the secretariat earlier.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It is dated 6 August 2015. It was a meeting that started at 11.15 a.m. and finished at 1.15 p.m.. I refer the Commissioner to page 3, which states "MC [which is Michael Culhane] said that he was shocked by what had just been said by [Ken Ruane] in that there was nothing complex or difficult about this issue and why would the issue have to be elevated to the Attorney Generals Office without...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Would the Commissioner be concerned that the head of the finance directorate would have been in open conflict with the head of legal? It is very clear from the minutes that they had very strong and differing opinions. He seemed to be very concerned that the matter could be referred to the Attorney General.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: When did the Commissioner take up her post?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: When did she first become aware of the irregularities at the training college?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: In July 2015, what action did she take?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: What did the Commissioner do specifically when she was made aware in July 2015 of irregularities at the Garda College? What action did she take?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: A working group?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes, it was a high-level working group. It was a steering group.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: These are the minutes of that working group or steering group?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: The Commissioner went through all that with Deputies previously. I am aware of that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes. There was, however, a steering group established and the minutes of that steering group meeting were up on the screen a moment ago. Is the Commissioner aware that the CAO chaired that meeting?

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