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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Business of Joint Committee
Hospital Services: Discussion
(4 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: I need the new primary care centres and matching all that up addressed. I also need the spinal unit in Galway and the resource issue there addressed.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: I thank Mr. Cahillane for his opening remarks. In the context of his role as the statutory financial adviser, how the project was set up in the first place and how the assessment was made, will he explain who was responsible for conducting the stress-testing of the parent company? How was it decided that the project was a safe bet?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: What would the Department do differently now in making that assessment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Would the NDFA use KPMG again for a similar assessment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: For the NDFA's assessment would it-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Is there any way of getting independent verification?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Surely that speaks to the problem that we have had all along of the overdependence on auditors, as well as paying them enormous sums to supply a service, and we continue to place full trust in what is given to us. If there is not the analytical capacity within government to see beyond what is presented to us by an auditor we are at the mercy of auditors, in the same way that we were during...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Is Mr. O'Neill satisfied that the NDFA did absolute due diligence in selecting this option and the companies involved?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: The NDFA made the decision so that is where the buck stopped.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: That is part of the problem with respect to the situation in which the subcontractors have found themselves. Even if there is not a specific legal obligation, there is a moral obligation on the agency at least to meet them. Has Mr. O'Neill met any of the subcontractors who have had their businesses ruined as a result of the collapse of Carillion?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: That hands-off approach does not sit well with me. The agency made a decision, having been informed by the auditors, and arising from that decision, businesses have gone to the wall. There is a moral responsibility on the agency. Has the agency done an audit of the number of jobs that have been lost as a result of the collapse?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: How many jobs have been lost in Ireland, North and South?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: No, I mean as a result of it collapsing in terms of subcontractors. Has the agency done an assessment of exactly how many jobs were lost or how many businesses were forced to close?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: That is something that needs to be done. That has been an impact of the agency's original decision to do this. The agency or some Department has an obligation to carry out a proper assessment of the number of jobs that have been lost. This has impacted on livelihoods and businesses that until the collapse of Carillion were operating effectively and efficiently.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: I understand that in the way its filters down and in terms of Sammon and its obligation to do what it needs to do. The agency cannot dissociate one from the other in terms of the obligations to workers and to businesses. Has all of this made the agency rethink the drive to go down the PPP route for these projects?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Are the industries in Britain and other European countries still going down the PPP route or are they favouring the traditional procurement method?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: Therefore, the agency is wedded to PPP projects, as such.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Rose Conway Walsh: I wanted to get the witnesses' opinions on this because the PPP options were being shut down in the UK in 2012. It makes me wonder why our Government would pursue that model. How much extra has the re-tendering process cost?

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