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Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Will the witnesses explain to me why one CHO should have to do it? Should that not be a central function? If different CHOs are dealing with it and if the financial statements come in centrally, I would have thought there should be a linkage between whoever signs the national service level agreement - we will call it that and we will take a large organisation - and that that section should...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: I understand that point where a provider has not fully completed the process. Mr. Mulvany mentioned he received the financial statements as part of their annual audit of financial statements. I ask him to forward a list of the organisations allocated funding of more than €3 million and the last date of the financial statement he received. Before he came in, we were talking about the...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: I make this point in a light-hearted manner. Is there any prospect Mr. O'Brien could second the staff in that section to the Department of Education and Skills-----

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: -----because some of the education and training board, ETBs, have not submitted accounts in two or three years? Those are public bodies. The organisations about which the witnesses are speaking are one step removed from public bodies. The HSE has achieved this because it writes the cheque. It holds the purse strings. Some of the third level institutions, the universities, are several...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Correct. I will ask Mr. O'Brien, in his own time, to assist this committee in this context. The HSE has improved a measure and got it right, something that has not happened in other public sector bodies. We are dealing with major State companies and the Comptroller and Auditor General is still waiting for public bodies to present their accounts for 2015, not to mind the clearance for...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Absolutely. I will get into trouble with somebody else for being nice to Mr. O'Brien here today. I do not only look at the negative. Where I see something good in the public service, I want it replicated. On the issue of public pay, we spoke about that in the context of the organisation previously. Ms. Mannion had a file earlier but I am not asking her to go through that. She said...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Are they for 320 different people?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: How many people would be covered in those?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Ms Mannion can understand the question. There is a minimum of one in each case-----

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: -----and there could be a number in some cases. There could be quite a number of people involved.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: We want to find out the extent of the problem. We understand some of the staff involved are at grade 4 and some are at different grades but some of them are probably far more significant and higher up at senior levels in the organisation. Are there any in those business cases at chief executive officer level?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Not at this point. Therefore, all the issues regarding the chief executive officers have been dealt with.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is important to hear that. Regarding the hospitals, I wish to get the detail on the split of funding, and I acknowledge the witnesses might not have that detail with them. Of the allocation of €14 billion, or whatever the figure is, approximately €4 billion goes to the section 38 and 39 organisations. I have asked about this previously and I have been told there is no...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: I ask Mr. Mulvany to take this slowly.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Will Mr. Mulvany provide a breakdown of the funding that is spent through the community health care organisations, the CHO regions?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Mulvany might then give us a national total.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am sure it varies from one CHO region to another-----

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: -----depending on historical issues.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Exactly. Mr. Mulvany will give us those figures. I do not want to go into this in detail because it is not the topic we are discussing, but I note the replies we have all got to parliamentary questions relating to people seeking home help service, some of which is provided by organisations funded through section 39 agreements. I could paper my walls with the replies which we have all got....

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Seán Fleming: Or by a mixture of both.

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