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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I would prefer if we dealt with that cover letter before the Secretary General comes in, because I have a major problem-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I do not have a difficulty with the letterper se. However, I would like to make a number of points. This comes up an awful lot now, where there are what I would call parallel investigations into issues. It has been brought to our attention then that when we are doing our job where processes, policies and procedures are concerned, we are reminded that we have to be careful. We are deeply...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Exactly, which is even more bizarre when one considers the comments from Richard Thorn. It is bizarre for him to advise the committee what we should or should not do and what questions we should or should not ask. He does not have to watch the proceedings at all if he is in any way of the mind that he might be influenced by what is said. It is bizarre that he is referred to at all. He is...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: It is not the first time this has happened and I do not like the inference made in the letter. It is an attempt to undermine the work of the committee.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: This was held over from last week. It was not in the correspondence at the time it was sent in so we agreed we would take it this week. It was follow-on correspondence because there was a discussion on the difference between how ConnectIreland and the IDA have to verify jobs that are created. There are two attachments. The first is PAC32R8482C, which is the requirements that...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: That is neither the point nor the problem. IDA Ireland can give us any amount of data. The question is whether the data is accurate. The problem is when the data is not accurate. We can put up on the screen the actual survey that IDA Ireland companies are asked to fill in. It is a one-page document that includes the Companies Registration Office number and the number of employees or jobs...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Last week, I asked if we could write to the HEA to get an update on the Waterford Institute of Technology review. Did we get a response?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Can I ask that the matter be held over? I have some questions but I can wait until next week.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I will seek your guidance first, Chairman. I am not at all happy with how this has progressed and I wish to follow up on Deputy McDonald's questions. The committee has addressed a number of different issues where there were parallel examinations and investigations. In fact, in a number of instances there were criminal investigations. To take the example of the National Asset Management...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes. I am trying to understand how the witnesses and, incidentally, the Secretary General of the Department, which worries me even more, believe they can stonewall this committee, refuse to answer questions or put forward the defence that they cannot answer questions on issues because of an examination being carried out. Was it the Department or the HEA that commissioned it?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: It is just a departmental examination or investigation. The matter has not been heard by a judge so Mr. Ó Foghlú cannot claim that it is sub judice. I am aghast that this has descended to this point and I am seeking guidance on this matter. If this were to be the modus operandifor how this committee works in the future, it would never get anything done. I want to clarify a number...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: What is it?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: No, Mr. Ashe is more than a witness. Does he know the nature of his role here?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. Ashe is an accountable person, not an accountable officer, which means he accounts to the Committee of Public Accounts, which he is not doing today. He is offering as a defence a refusal to answer questions because Dr. Thorn, who was simply appointed by the Department to carry out an examination, gave him advice. That is not acceptable. I need guidance from the Chair as to how we...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I am talking to Mr. Ashe.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Did Dr. Thorn advise Mr. Ruttle not to appear?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I have been informed that Dr. Thorn advised Mr. Ashe not to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts. I will ask him again. He is here as a witness so I want him to be clear in order that he does not mislead the committee. It is not a good position for someone to be in if he or she misleads the Committee of Public Accounts. Did Dr. Thorn advise Mr. Ashe not to appear before the...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Did he advise Mr. Ashe not to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I want to understand when Dr. Thorn assumed the role of advising witnesses about what they should or should not say to the Committee of Public Accounts. Since when did Dr. Thorn - in the course of his work - seek to subvert the work of the Committee of Public Accounts? I want to put this to Mr. Ó Foghlú. I can tell him now that whatever report comes from Dr. Thorn will be...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: That is Mr. Ó Foghlú's view. I will give him my view. I asked when Dr. Thorn was appointed.

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