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Written Answers — Department of Health: Medicinal Products Availability (11 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: 902. To ask the Minister for Health the additional annual cost to the Health Service Executive budget for more frequent and longer hospital stays arising from the National Centre for Pharmaeconomics decision to cease providing Pirfenidone to patients with Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis. [27276/13]

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I think it is similar.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Unlike Deputy Donnelly, I see the merit in that tried and tested formula. Section 115 indicates that a witness before a committee may be required by the committee to give his or her evidence to the committee on oath. The committee would make that decision on the basis of the gravity or centrality of the evidence being brought. How is the distinction made?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: What happens if a witness refuses to take the oath or give evidence in that respect? There are sanctions for taking the oath and giving wrong information.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Will the Minister clarify if there is a sanction?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I imagine that for inquiries where an oath is required by the committee, it would underscore the seriousness of the matter.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: My reading of section 90 is that it would enable civil servants, who are the permanent government, to give a full and factual sequential account of what happened, including - and I ask the Minister to confirm this - the options that may have been considered and what was communicated by any person during the course of events. I understand the concern the Minister has with regard to witnesses...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I understand, but-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: The reason I raised this issue is that in the course of the discussion the Minister pointed to the fact that Cabinet confidentiality must be invoked, but no invoking is required here under section 68. It is very prescriptive and tells any inquiry exactly where it cannot go.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: That is a problem for-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: The more significant difficulty is not the revelation of discussions but rather the documentation and the paper trail. Let us imagine a sequence of events in whatever scenario is being pieced together. One will be trying to get under the skin of what happened and why. That will be hugely problematic. The legislation represents a vigorous assertion of confidentiality, particularly when one...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I understand the test of the reasonable person. As I said earlier, the complication arises when it is an inquiry into a Member of the Oireachtas. That is where, in my view, it gets a bit messy. We operate within an adversarial system and there are all sorts of things said in the cut and thrust of political debate. How can the Minister assure us that this sense of institutional or party...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am not questioning that and I work on that assumption. I made the point that it would be helpful when we are asked to scrutinise legislation such as this, particularly given that, as the Minister correctly said, the Attorney General fulfils a dual role and there is an onus on all of us to ensure the constitutionality, as best we can, of the laws we enact.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: This section has the full spectrum of almost court-like protections and I recognise that the procedure guarantees immunities, privileges and so on and that incrimination may not be invoked as a reason to refuse to co-operate with an inquiry by declining to answer a question or furnish a document. Can the Minister reassure me that section 15(2) does not affect the existing constitutional...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I appreciate the Minister's answer and I accept it. I was not asking about sanctions but about self-incrimination which I know often has the consequence of a sanction. I have raised this issue with the Minister in the past. I recognise that it is not the practice to make available the advice of the Attorney General but there are circumstances in which it would be extremely helpful not...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: There is merit in Deputy Donnelly's amendments. He pointed out that in other jurisdictions one does not need the 50%-plus-one rule within the process. Whether it is 25% or one third, the point is that, as currently structured, for an inquiry to be completed a majority vote must be achieved. I assume the concern that has triggered these amendments is that one could have matters entirely...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I thank the Minister for that information. He helpfully used the term "bias", and there is a concern in that regard. We have talked about the potential for bias in respect of, for example, any potential banking inquiry concerning what Members may have said publicly and on the record. Equally, there is a concern around a kind of institutional bias or naked party political bias entering into...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am sure the Minister can understand the additional complication that enters into the whole area of bias when it is politicians who are inquiring into a fellow politician, irrespective of whether they are of the same party-political persuasion. I accept there are provisions in the legislation with regard to bias, which strike me as fairly robust. However, there is a particular concern...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: When we come to section 7, will the Minister clarify whether there is scope to make findings of fact in cases in which the facts are contested? I know I am straying.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I have the same issue with section 7.

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