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Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: They were not being shared with us in a way that would have allowed us to understand fully the drivers and what needed to be done to address the issue. That is why my Department will now be participating in the process. I have no doubt at all that if I had gone into the Dáil to reduce health expenditure by €645 million across 2018, it would have caused a significant reaction and...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: I accept the point that one does not suddenly find out in September that there are issues. However, in the summer economic statement and the update I gave in September before the announcement of the budget in October, I flagged that there was a health expenditure overrun. In the summer economic statement I identified an expenditure risk which fluctuated during the year and was the subject...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: It depends on whether the Deputy is talking about income or expenditure. If he is talking about expenditure, the timelag can be between three and five days, but normally we know within one week what has happened in the previous month. If the data are for income, the timelag can be considerably longer; it could be months. This refers particularly to the challenge in collecting income from...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: As I said, I am not changing my assumptions and the announcements I made in budget 2018. The first opportunity I will have to present a revised update on any policy decision will be in the stability programme update. I am still anticipating that we will be standing by many of the macroeconomic choices and commitments I made, especially the rainy day fund. That is my view, but I am mindful...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: As the Deputy is aware, within the European Commission there is a definition of an "exceptional event". That definition will require teasing out in the context of how the rainy day fund will work. We are facing a great unknown in terms of what a disorderly Brexit could look like. The plans for the rainy day fund stand. I was due to take the legislation dealing with fund last night in the...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: I have no intention of using it to recapitalise banks-----

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: We have a number of funds available for that purpose such as the European Stability Mechanism and the Single Resolution Fund, rather than the Single Resolution Mechanism. Why is the Deputy arguing that the fund could be used to bail out a bank?

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: That is not my intention, nor do I anticipate that it will be used for that purpose.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: There are so many risks. We have no expectation or need, either now, in the medium term or beyond, to do it. In particular, as the Deputy is aware, we have just put in place at home and within the European Union a very extensive legal framework to prevent the taxpayer from having to make capital injections into banks or minimise the risk thereof. We have put in place a very extensive...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: What I am trying to be clear about is that if the economy takes a very big hit because of Brexit - I have outlined all of the difficulties in indicating what the hit would be - I will consider all of the options available to me to help the economy to respond. There are many options that will be open to me if we reach that point, but it is not my intention to do what the Deputy has indicated,...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: We are working on it. The HSE and the representatives of the nurses met yesterday afternoon and a further meeting is to take place on Friday between all of the unions involved in the management of the current wage agreement.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: In fairness to the Deputy, I shall develop the answer to the question he put to me. I am willing to work with the Department of Health and the HSE to consider ways in which the issue can be resolved, but I am not willing to put in place any measure that would undermine the national wage agreement. That has happened already in this Dáil in another part of the civil and public service....

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: This illustrates the problem with collective wage agreements. The Chairman has granted Deputy O'Brien five seconds, but Deputy Pearse Doherty is asking why he has been deprived.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: That illustrates my challenge. The Deputy is laughing only out of grace.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: We have acknowledged that some allowances, in particular, were contributing to some of the challenges, but that is why I have agreed to change them.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: The cost of the demands the nursing unions are articulating would be €300 million. If I were to make any change in a pay rate, it would have to be done for everybody. We made an agreement with many unions and said there was only a certain amount available for public pay in any given year. If the integrity of that commitment was to be undermined, the need would crystallise...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: No.

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: I stand by what I said to the Deputy. Of course, there was engagement between my Department and the Department of Health on a submission on recruitment and retention. It happened because my Department has overall policy responsibility for staffing, recruitment and pay for all public services. As part of the process in that regard, we examined extensively the data available for recruitment...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: Another submission asserting other than what I have done or what the submission did would have been sent from the INMO and all of the unions that were active in the health service. The body that adjudicated over that was not the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, but the Public Service Pay Commission, which is independent of me. Some of its report's recommendations caused...

Committee on Budgetary Oversight: Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (16 Jan 2019)

Paschal Donohoe: No. On whether we influenced the submission, we had an engagement with the HSE. That happens all of the time. My Department had responsibility for some key areas. We engaged with the HSE on the submission, as we will with every Department on its views on recruitment and retention, but with respect to the Deputy's good self, I categorically reject any view that we gutted that submission.

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