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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: If people do not do that, they do not come to the attention of the agency.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Some 87% of all the liabilities outstanding in 2016 were accounted for by Tusla and HSE. Some of the liabilities relate to catastrophic injuries at birth which account for a sizeable amount. If the SCA sees clusters or patterns where one hospital is subject to many claims, what does the agency do to get to the root of the problem?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I want to move through some of the other areas, specifically, the National Development Finance Agency and Carillion. Carillion did not engage in building work but essentially contracted out the work. The opening statement refers to the transfer of risk, which is the purpose of public private partnerships. According to the agency, PPPs have been very effective and the risk has been...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: The fallout has predominantly been domestic in terms of the liquidation of Sammon and the impact on subcontractors and jobs. The red flag that was connected with Carillion and the health of the company prior to the contract being awarded is a significant issue. People rely on the State to carry out due diligence. Smaller companies further down the food chain are not in a position to do the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: No, that is not the point I was making. Mr. O'Kelly spoke earlier about the very tight margins Carillion was working to, which probably created exposure. These were also picked up down the food chain, if one likes, in terms of the domestic fallout. I will move on to another aspect of the accounts on non-effective expenditure, which relates to the IT system. A total of €853,000...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: The NTMA planned to spend a pile of money - €853,000 - on a system that was not provided. I am not really concerned about whether the company has a reputation. This will certainly damage its reputation because it was contracted to do something and did not do it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: There was a public cost from that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Was a business case prepared which indicated that a product would be delivered-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: -----but the product was not delivered?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: How much would the contract have been worth, in total, if it had been fully brought to fruition?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: It was worth €5 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: What was the lifespan of the contract?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: It would have included servicing and upgrades and so on.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Some €853,000 was paid before the contract was pulled. Was compensation obtained from the company or is it being pursued? Why was the company paid before the product was delivered?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Will it be possible to recoup some of the money paid?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Has the NTMA issued another tender or is it seeking to install another IT system?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Obviously, it is a large amount of money and the reputation of a particular company is at issue. In light of it not delivering on the contract, is there any reason for the committee not to be told its identity?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: The witnesses referred to the very low interest rates on the enormous national debt. The Chair pointed out that the refinance demand relates to €50 billion, approximately one quarter of the national debt. Obviously, we are considering maturities and a potential increase in the cost of servicing the national debt. Have projections been made regarding the end of a low interest rate...

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