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Financial Resolutions 2018 - Financial Resolution No. 4: General (Resumed) (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Hear, hear.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: A number of issues arise here. We also received correspondence from the actual service provider.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: I will certainly do that. Obviously there is a strong difference of opinion between the HSE and the service provider. I have a concern as to whether the Deloitte report could be classed as independent. We have received a report that was paid for by the HSE to answer a question that the service provider says was not the question that needed to be asked. Notwithstanding that, the report...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The service provider.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The service provider said in its letter-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The service providers received the draft-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: That is the point; we should see it. I am only relaying what it is telling us. It is telling us that there was an earlier draft, which had the table and did make the distinction between the cost of care for Grace and whether that would then involve a net increase or decrease in its funding. That was the source of the contention. That did not make its way into the final report and as the...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: I accept some of what the Chairman is saying.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Of course the Chairman is entitled to be clear, and he is very clear, but he is conflating two issues, with respect, if I can just respond. Of course there was a High Court case, and it was in respect of whether moneys were due to the organisation. The High Court outcome was that there was money due and it was paid. That is not what is in question. The question is whether the group itself...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Hang on one second now, because the Chairman gave his view. I do not see the report as independent. There are questions that need to be answered about how the HSE interacts with this committee in terms of the evidence it gives and whether it is accurate. We must hold it to account if we believe it is not accurate, and there is every indication it was inaccurate, so we have a responsibility...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: I seek clarification. I do not want to be unhelpful and I do work with the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee. It is not often I strongly insist on something. I have concerns, and I have expressed them already, about the independence of the Deloitte report. I am expressing it as an opinion, but in terms of due process and fairness, surely I should have a right to test and probe...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: My point is whether we can make a statement like that and then, in terms of due process, not examine whether that is the case.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: To be factual here, the service providers did not go to the High Court. It was Grace who went to the High Court. The service provider element was just one part of what was heard. The service providers did not themselves go to the High Court.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: There are a lot.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: It is not unusual for us to spend time on correspondence, or for witnesses to spend time waiting outside.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Briefly, I support An Teachta McDonald. We are busy and we have a heavy work schedule, but anyone who has read that report would have been flabbergasted by it and really concerned and alarmed, and I was one of those. We have to make room as soon as we possibly can. There was a cover note - I appreciate that it was sent anonymously to us but it seems to be authentic - that this was a...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The Chairman is correct when he states that the NTPF sets the prices, but what is disturbing about this note - noting the caveat it was sent to us anonymously - is that it suggests the chair of HIQA potentially was involved in discussions with private nursing homes where he could have been lobbying or seen to have been lobbying on their behalf, but also exploring ways in which the NTPF could...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: We need to agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General's explanation. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Whatever we need to do in a technical sense, we should do.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The last point is pertinent. Had we received answers at the last meeting - I was not here - we might not have to revisit the issue. On the report from the secretariat, it was good and useful in that it set out what our remit was and was not. That is useful for us in influencing what decision we will make. I have looked at five areas of concern that fall within the committee's remit,...

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