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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: I want to clarify a couple of things I have heard today and put them in the context of the meeting because they might have been lost in the course of the exchanges here. The committee wanted to get the detail of this arrangement some time ago, in 2022. We sought the attendance of various members of Government, Secretaries General and so on. We received some written submissions which have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: I am coming to that point. I have allowed you to say what you had to say. I want to clarify the facts here. We had to seek compellability, which was granted. I want those who are listening to understand that the clerk then contacted you as a courtesy to say that the committee had compellability but asking would you, understanding this, like to attend voluntarily. It is the first time I...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: It is not a procedural matter, Mr. Watt. I will ask you again, and you can decide what to say or do, is it not a terribly bad example from a senior civil servant that this is the way we end up at the committee today?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: First of all, I did not suggest otherwise. I gave the facts as the committee members would know them and as you would know them. You have given an answer that, like the other answers you have given today, falls well short of what would be expected of the standards of a Secretary General of a Department, a senior member of the Civil Service. That is the question not answered. In the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: In that case the only level of funding you are suggesting we are talking about is Dr. Tony Holohan's salary. That is it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: Just clarify this for me. The €2 million would go to the HRB and the salary of Dr. Holohan would be paid from that. They were the details that-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: You commented on that today, and I want to get this right.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: You are saying that €2 million was not for Trinity at all. The commitment in some of the correspondence is that the Department would pay his salary.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: By whom?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: It would not go directly from the HRB to Trinity. It could have been disbursed to lots of universities, so it was not for Trinity at all. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: That is what you are saying.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: As I have already asked, how then was Dr. Holohan's salary to be paid? This reports states that his salary was to be paid by the Department of Health.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: The report we are discussing today.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: What was to happen?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: Whatever HRB decided to allocate to Trinity, they were expected to pay his salary out of that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: You mentioned earlier the period for this secondment. We spoke about the five years maximum, the six months and so on. For the ten year period of his secondment, because he will retire around 2032, this particular ring-fenced funding was to be made available. This included his salary, which would be paid to him by Trinity, but they would get nothing else.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: Your decision was only about Dr. Holohan's salary. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: That was it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

John McGuinness: The HRB was then allowed to allocate whatever funding it decided.

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