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Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Did he advise Mr. Ashe not to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I want to understand when Dr. Thorn assumed the role of advising witnesses about what they should or should not say to the Committee of Public Accounts. Since when did Dr. Thorn - in the course of his work - seek to subvert the work of the Committee of Public Accounts? I want to put this to Mr. Ó Foghlú. I can tell him now that whatever report comes from Dr. Thorn will be...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: That is Mr. Ó Foghlú's view. I will give him my view. I asked when Dr. Thorn was appointed.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Absolutely.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I apologise. I do not have the witness' name.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Will Mr. Loftus talk me through the process of how Dr. Thorn was appointed? He said the Department evaluated a number of people. How many?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Did this go out to tender?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Dr. Thorn had just finished a separate report. Was it for the HEA or the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Is Dr. Thorn on a retainer with the HEA and the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Nobody on this committee would in any way seek to tell Dr. Thorn what he should do, how he should carry out his examination or how he should report back to the Department. That is entirely a matter for the Department and whatever process it has with Dr. Thorn. How is it acceptable that Dr. Thorn would believe that he can in any way dictate to this committee how it does its job or advise...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. Ó Foghlú is missing the point entirely. With respect, he is avoiding the point I am putting to him. We are not going to dictate to Dr. Thorn how he carries out his review. Mr. Ó Foghlú, as Accounting Officer for the Department, needs to understand that we have a statutory responsibility to probe systems, processes and procedural failures. That is our role. That is...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Is Mr. Ruttle telling me that he did not get advice from Dr. Thorn about what he can or cannot say at this committee?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Can Mr. Ruttle answer the questions for us then? Perhaps we should put the questions to him and not to Mr. Ashe.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Can we start the clock again? Perhaps at this point we can put the questions to Mr. Ruttle. From what he said, not only did he not get advice on what he can or cannot say, he is of the view that he is independent and can speak freely. He can, therefore, help this committee, notwithstanding the accountable person's view.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: So we have the same line.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: With respect-----

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I am deeply frustrated and annoyed with the witnesses, including the Secretary General of the Department. I want clarification from the Chairman. If we have to suspend the meeting-----

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: -----return to this matter and bring the witnesses back again at some point, we will. We will stay here all night if we have to. We are not going to have witnesses before the Committee of Public Accounts and either subvert its work or prevent it from doing its job. That is not going to happen. There is no legal impediment whatsoever to the witnesses answering the questions that are being...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

David Cullinane: I do not agree with that because I do not think we can do our job, and I am not happy with that. We should go into private session and discuss this.

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