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Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Turas Nua and Seetec?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Can Mr. McKeon answer questions on the detail of the expenditure of €71 million? How was it spent?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: The level of detail is important because, as I pointed out earlier, there is a lot of outsourcing in the public sector. We are outsourcing service delivery. It is our job to make sure all the money is spent wisely. In process terms, we need to be able to ensure we hold accountable officers to account but, because there is a service level agreement in place and the service delivery is...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: How much is that?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I have asked Mr. McKeon a simple question and the first response was, "I do not want to say". Why can he not say?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Can I stop Mr. McKeon there? I have heard what he is saying.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: No. I want to stop Mr. McKeon. I accept what he is saying. I want to turn to the Chairman because this is a problem here.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: There is a figure of €71.2 million over two years. The service delivery is outsourced to two companies. The very first question, a simple one, was on the value of the initial registration fee paid. We cannot even get that initial registration fee because of commercial sensitivity, I would imagine. That is the problem with this outsourcing. How are we meant to understand how this...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I am going to come to that now in terms of performance.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I just want to put a number of other questions. My first observation is that Mr. McKeon makes the point that confidentiality could be seen as a way of protecting the State. Mr. McKeon sees it in that light. He wants to make sure we get the best possible price. There is logic to that but only on the basis that one accepts that outsourcing of all the service delivery is good....

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: He is not accountable to me today because he cannot tell me what the registration fee is. That is my question. He is accountable to me but he cannot actually be accountable because he is saying a wall has been put between us. The wall is confidentiality and commercial sensitivity. While one could argue at one level that this is about protecting the State, this is the Committee of Public...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I am not easily frustrated. It is not frustration but a matter of probing and trying to get answers to questions.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I thank Mr. McKeon for the advice on what I can ask questions on but I am the one asking the questions.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I will determine whether the questions are relevant. The initial registration fee is one part of the payment. Payments are made when a client achieves sustained employment. There could be a number of payments. What is the range of payments made?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: What is the average payment?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: This is where the jobseeker has developed a personal progression path.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: What I am looking for is an average. Mr. McKeon is saying payments are made.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Three tiers of payment. What is the average payment?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: For clarification purposes, is Mr. McKeon telling me again that he is not in a position to give us even the average sum paid to company based on an individual? We are not looking for an individual breakdown for each person. Is it not even possible to give the average in the range?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I do not accept that.

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