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Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: An error is not deliberate, intentional or has criminal consequences. Fraud is a deliberate act to defraud the State.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: That puzzles me. Every single time Mr. McKeon mentioned fraud, he mentioned error. Going back over his opening statement, it contains the words "fraud and error". That is not an appropriate way to deal with both issues. In process terms, the Department needs to separate instances of fraud from instances of error. The reason is because the media perception when these figures are covered...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: What is the net level of fraud compared with the net level of error over the five years?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I am posing the questions. The Comptroller and Auditor General can have whatever processes he likes, I am posing the questions. Lumping in fraud and error as one, even in terms of controls, is not the appropriate way to deal with it. One can still deal with them separately. The Secretary General can give us separate figures on fraud, error and overpayments. Then we can see what the...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: What is meant by overall figure?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: What is the distinction between fraud and error?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: On the very first payment we deal with, error accounts for 80% while fraud is only 20%. That is a good enough reason these fraud and error figures should be clearly separated.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: They were not in the presentation to us.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I see the net figure but I do not see it broken up between fraud and error. Mr. McKeon's opening statement is important. He has dealt with chapter 16 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Every time he spoke about fraud, he referred to error. With respect, today, he did not give any distinction between fraud and error. Nowhere in his opening statement did he give that...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I am not convinced that Mr. McKeon did.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: In his concluding remarks, Mr. McKeon said there is a small amount of fraud in the system. He acknowledges that. My point is that in accounting terms and in the substance of where fraud is dealt with, it is dealt with in the context of error as well. The figures are the overall ones and they are not separated. Mr. McKeon should be conscious of that for obvious reasons.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I want to get to the obvious reasons because they were already dealt with.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I acknowledge that. I know it was dealt with already and I know Mr. McKeon cannot comment on the actions of a Minister or the Government. However, we had a high-profile campaign which attracted much media attention in suggesting the levels of fraud in the social protection system were potentially much higher than they were. There was a bus advertising campaign in which the words "social...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Is this the welfare cheats campaign?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Was it a mistake?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I know questions here can be robust but I commend Mr. McKeon on accepting that it might have been a mistake and learning from the process. It is important as we do not get enough of this from Accounting Officers. That is the right approach. Which of Mr. McKeon's colleagues is responsible for JobPath?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: How much did JobPath cost from July 2015 to September 2017?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Some €71 million per year. Is Mr. McKeon accountable for that?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. McKeon is accountable for that expenditure.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: How is that money spent? Who is it given to?

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