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Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: How many have gone through the system?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Various people-----

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: What statistics does Mr. McKeon have?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: What we do know is that €35 million has been paid for the service. Is Mr. McKeon telling us the output is visible on the website?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: RTÉ would not tell us how much it gives to each film producer.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will have to discuss that. Mr. McKeon has drawn the line on commercial sensitivity. A certain sum is paid. Bluntly, what Mr. McKeon is saying is that if he publishes which organisation is getting less than the other, the one getting less will be in tomorrow morning saying it wants more because more is being paid to the other. That is a cost to the State and we have to understand that too.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: We are going to park this topic-----

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: In terms of the public arena, Mr. McKeon says the numbers on the scheme have been published, as have the costs. I ask him to send us whatever information he has on this. Anybody, even the two companies, should be able to work out -----

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is there is more information that Mr. McKeon can give us that is not company specific?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes. We are well over the time allocated.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Deputy Catherine Murphy is next.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: As we have been here for three hours, I suggest we take a five-minute sos. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will resume our discussion with the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. Did Ms Faughnan wish to complete an answer?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is appreciated.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have a few questions, but I will let Deputy Cullinane in for a quick moment.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. McKeon is going to supply information.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have a few questions I want to put as we draw to a conclusion. I thank the witnesses for the document they sent to us, entitled "Supplementary Welfare Allowance 2016 Fraud & Error Survey". It seems to be a case of "Here we go again". I want Mr. McKeon to define what he calls fraud. I would have thought fraud was a criminal offence, but the only person who can call it that is a...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is not in the report.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: The report published on 24 November 2017 is all about customer fraud. I find the document referring to the supplementary welfare allowance more worrying. I will not read the name of the document because I do not like the title which refers to fraud. We have talked about the definitions used in compiling the report. The document states that the definitions have been aligned with the fraud...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I think Mr. McKeon takes the point that these things are suspected fraud until such time as they are proven. I refer to page 234 of the report. Mr. McKeon does not need to go into it in detail. There are 131,000 people out of 191,000 people who owe some money, and 36,000 owe less than €100. Will the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform agree to some common sense and...

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