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Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will resume our discussion with the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. Did Ms Faughnan wish to complete an answer?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is appreciated.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have a few questions, but I will let Deputy Cullinane in for a quick moment.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. McKeon is going to supply information.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have a few questions I want to put as we draw to a conclusion. I thank the witnesses for the document they sent to us, entitled "Supplementary Welfare Allowance 2016 Fraud & Error Survey". It seems to be a case of "Here we go again". I want Mr. McKeon to define what he calls fraud. I would have thought fraud was a criminal offence, but the only person who can call it that is a...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is not in the report.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: The report published on 24 November 2017 is all about customer fraud. I find the document referring to the supplementary welfare allowance more worrying. I will not read the name of the document because I do not like the title which refers to fraud. We have talked about the definitions used in compiling the report. The document states that the definitions have been aligned with the fraud...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I think Mr. McKeon takes the point that these things are suspected fraud until such time as they are proven. I refer to page 234 of the report. Mr. McKeon does not need to go into it in detail. There are 131,000 people out of 191,000 people who owe some money, and 36,000 owe less than €100. Will the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform agree to some common sense and...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: The point I am making is that the average debts, as set out, are building up to create a bad impression. The reality, however, is that of the 190,000 people who owe the Department money, most do not owe very much at all. Another issue of concern to me is that the application forms which go out from the Department, for carer's benefit or allowance, disability benefit and so on, are heavily...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am a lay person, not a medical expert, but Oireachtas Members are stakeholders in this in our own way. We will all be dealing with such cases in our constituencies tomorrow. In fairness, the service we receive is always courteous and prompt. On the appeals process, the first stage is that the deciding officer makes a decision on an application. The applicant then has 21 days to submit...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am referring to the outcome of the internal departmental reviews.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: This is very important information. Ms Gordon is saying that of the appeals which go to her office and result in a favourable outcome, which is some 60% of all appeals received by the office, 40% of that 60% - which amounts to approximately 25% of the total - are revised by the original deciding officer, perhaps having had the benefit of a more recent medical report.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Where a person submits a more up-to-date consultant's report, which the deciding officer did not have when making the original decision, does the appeals office send that report to the deciding officer?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: To put it another way, of the 16,000 appeals that went into Ms Gordon's office, the original decision was upheld in 40% of cases and 25% of them were revised by the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Ms Gordon is saying that of the 100% of applications submitted, 35% were given a favourable response by her office. People are not aware of this. We do hear of decisions being changed by deciding officers in the Department, but the tendency has been to give 100% of the credit for favourable appeal outcomes to the appeals office. However, Ms Gordon has indicated that in 40% of cases where...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: That information is not being made clear. We hear about the 60% of cases where a change is made, but it is now clear that a significant portion of them are being done by the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: The information is not out there at all. I have seen examples in my constituency work, but I was not conscious of the significance of the portion of revised decisions that are taken within the Department rather than by the appeals office. It is good to have that information on the record and it reflects well on the appeals process. When a deciding officer makes a decision, a letter goes...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Does it not apply to all schemes?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is only medical.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General 2016 Report
Chapter 16: Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 17: Management of Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 18: Department Reviews of welfare Schemes, Social Welfare Appeals Process, Social Insurance Fund
(7 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Will Mr. McKeon clarify this for me?

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