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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy is over time but I will give him another few minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is 2.5%.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Arising from the exchanges in the past few minutes, I will make a few comments which may help as the meeting proceeds. Mr. Carville stated that €280 million was received in 2016 as an interim dividend, a further 25% payment will be made to the admitted unsecured creditors of IBRC and a further interim dividend of €280 million will be received in the next few weeks. This is all...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is he precluded from discussing the issue? Has he been advised that it would better not to discuss it or has he been precluded from discussing it? There is a big difference between being advised not to do something and being told one may not do something. The Department has used the word "advised". My interpretation is that the Attorney General has not told the Department it is precluded...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am asking Mr. Carville to have someone immediately check with his office and have a copy of the letter sent to him if he does not have one in front of him. I would be surprised if he came to the meeting without a copy but if he does not have one to hand, he should get somebody to email it to the secretariat or the officials present. Mr. Carville has cited legal advice all morning. We...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Pardon me.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: We would like to be satisfied that the Department has received legal advice not to come but has not been precluded from attending. There is a difference between the two. The education and training board also informed the committee last week that it had been advised not to answer questions, even though there was nothing to preclude it from doing so. This is the second time exactly the same...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: The legal advisers may have said they had taken charge of the case and Departmental officials may not discuss it. If I was in a car accident, my insurance company would take charge of the case and tell me not to discuss it. That is the insurance company taking charge. We understand the position. I referred to the second sum of €280 million. Why is Mr. Carville free to discuss...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: That brings the figure up to 50%.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I understand commercial sensitivity, which is a phrase used here all the time. Will Mr. Carville explain why this contract is commercially sensitive? I know it is a commercial contract but I would like an explanation of the reasons it is commercially sensitive.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am delighted Mr. Carville said that because it is the gist of what he said the first time. He gave the example of investment banks. His principal rationale for claiming this is commercially sensitive is that there may be another liquidation or something major of this scale in future and he does not want to disclose this information in case it prejudices the State's negotiations the next...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Carville must accept that the point on investment banks is not valid because it is a recurring issue. There could be recourse to investment bankers for the sale of more shares in other projects down the road. This is different.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: There is nothing with which this special liquidation can be compared.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: As of now, Mr. Carville is saying that his job is to protect. That sounds high and mighty, but no one can verify his statement that the Department is protecting the interests of the State by taking this approach, as information is not being published in the public arena. All we have is his uncorroborated word for it. I am not doubting the Department of Finance's word, but we only have its...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: How many full-time staff are involved in this case in the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: There is a maximum of two whole-time equivalents dealing with something of this scale, yet Mr. Carville is telling us that the Department has it under control.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: It sounds light. The Department is protecting the interests of the State, yet we are now hearing that there is a maximum of two whole-time equivalent, WTE, staff dealing with this issue. We waited up all night in the Oireachtas to pass this special emergency legislation for the largest liquidation ever in the history of the State. I examined the figures this morning. The public sector...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Please do. If Mr. Hynds tells me there are three, it will not change my view.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: When the legislation was being dealt with and the process was being implemented. That is understandable.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: In addition, there were 166 Deputies in the Dáil all night backing up the Department.

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