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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Carville just told me that the Department is great at protecting the taxpayers' interests, yet now he is telling me that he does not know how many cases are before the courts.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: If Mr. Carville rings someone, could that person get it for us?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I mean in the Department, not the liquidator. Five officials are present today. I would have expected someone in the Department to have sufficient knowledge of what was going on to protect the taxpayers' interests and be able to say that, for example, there were ten, 80 or 119 cases in the courts. However, we cannot even be told how many are before the courts. I ask Mr. Carville to get...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: What is the total gross value of the claims in the cases before the courts? If the cases are before the courts, the claims are published. I would have expected the Department to be a ready reckoner and be able to add the potential cost of the cases up to €X billion. We hope that it will not cost that much. The Department must know the gross contingent liability to the State if all...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: If the Department is monitoring this and protecting the taxpayers' interests as it claims, he should know the current state of play as regards the gross monetary value of the cases were they to be successful.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: If Mr. Carville cannot provide the information today, we will want the details. They are in the public arena if the cases are before the courts. The Department should have them if it is actually protecting the taxpayer. If all of the witnesses can attend this meeting without someone being able to access that figure, Mr. Carville cannot expect us to accept his statement that the Department...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: All of them could be large.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Carville gets our point. Based on what is beginning to emerge, we are disappointed with the level of scrutiny and oversight of the process. My apologies to Deputy Catherine Murphy for cutting in there but as Chairman, I just had to clarify that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: What is the €1.3 billion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: The total of what?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Carville said there is €1.3 billion of unsecured debt.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: What is the total?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: €1.6 billion of-------

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: I apologise for interrupting Deputy Murphy but I want to get clarity on the issue. In terms of money owed, be it unsecured bonds or anything else, there is €1.3 billion owed to unsecured creditors, with the State being owed €1.1 billion of that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: There are external creditors. Are some of the external creditors State organisations such as local authorities?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Let us say it is half------

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Let us assume €100 million, or half of the €200 million, is owed to external creditors to the public------

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: There is €1.3 billion-------

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes, admitted.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Seán Fleming: In terms of the €1.3 billion owed to unsecured creditors, €1.1 billion is owed to the State, leaving €200 million. A large chunk of that is owed to various local authorities and the Revenue Commissioners. Let us say that 50% or €100 million is owed to other arms of the State and 50% to external unsecured creditors. Some €300 million is due to unsecured...

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