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Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 38 - Health (Supplementary)
(6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: That is a major issue. The Minister said there were 312 on the scoliosis waiting list at the start of the year but that is now down to about 159. However, a backlog is already developing again on the outpatient list. They will move to the inpatient list eventually. We must acknowledge the situation. I like to think I am reasonably fair but we must accept that the outpatient system is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: I thank the Chair and the committee. I believe we are taking this under Standing Order 141(3) and that it will hopefully be reported to both Houses. The Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017, if enacted, will require "practitioners to declare any income or gift received from medical suppliers or pharmaceutical companies to the Medical Council in statutory declaration annually." ...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: No. It primarily addresses health care professionals who prescribe. It is acknowledged by ourselves, in the briefing paper compiled by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service and in the comments made by the Minister in the Dáil, that it might be necessary to broaden the scope of this Bill to include doctors, other prescribers, other health care professionals and employees at the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: I am open to amendments being made or an expansion of my Bill. We do not want to be overly prescriptive. We want to embrace all views and opinions to ensure that the legislation goes through. We want to ensure that the Bill is legally sound and, more importantly, is transparent when it comes to the prescription of medicines and use of medical devices and equipment in this country.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: The definitions section of the Bill outlines:“declarable income” means any money or other form of payment that a medical practitioner receives from a medical equipment supplier, its servants or agents, or pharmaceutical company and its servants or agents above the value of €600. There is potential for people to circumvent the provision by making multiple donations that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: We might broaden the scope of the legislation. The current provision is quite restrictive as it purely refers to health care professionals. One could argue that the requirement should be already mandatory as the HSE reports and publishes details on the people who work in hospitals but are paid by pharmaceutical companies. The third issue raised by the Deputy was orphan drugs. I do not...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: The Bill states: " 'gift' means any voluntary transfer of money, grant for research, bursary, service or property without compensation above the value of €600.". Again, there is an acknowledgement in terms of the broad debate around the Bill that there may be a requirement to consider the matter in more detail on Committee Stage. Like everything else, having sponsored a Private...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: In terms of posts being paid for by pharmaceutical companies, we do not want to discourage charity or philanthropy. Certainly, that is something we all laud, applaud and encourage. All we are saying is that in the event of such posts being paid for, that it would be publicly declared. That would be the purpose. It is not actually defined in this Bill but I think that has been mentioned in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: No, that is okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: In terms of diabetic testing equipment, if it is not a direct transfer of value to the clinician himself or herself, it probably would not be governed under this legislation as it is drafted. Primarily, the transfer of value would be to the patients. We can get into the detail at some stage. If the doctor is charging for the use of that equipment, then that would be covered.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: The equipment is.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: I do not believe that would be covered in this legislation as it stands. I mentioned that earlier. Some €10.7 million went directly to hospitals from drug companies and other entities, and that is not covered in this Bill.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: We could just broaden the scope of this Bill. It is important that we accept that there might be a need to broaden this Bill, and that has been referred to by the Minister in his observations, and in those of the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, as well.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: There is a voluntary code among pharmaceutical companies to declare, but the individual in receipt of the gift can decline to publish his or her name. If a doctor does not want his or her name to be publicised, he or she can decline. There is no statutory obligation. That is a difficulty. A pharmaceutical company could be taking many clinicians abroad. Some people would allow their name...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: A value will be put on a trip. It will be said that the trip is being subsidised by a certain amount, and therefore a company is either under the limit or over the limit in terms of the obligation to declare, if this legislation were to be passed

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: Yes. The companies would not have to run around and count every receipt. It would be done. I do not believe it is onerous.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: I believe that this would help, and the reason I say that is because it would remove the potential for the public or individuals to have a view that there are conflicts. There is no doubt that as we look into the future, we will see much more international co-operation in terms of clinicians travelling abroad to conferences, being peer-reviewed across the globe and interacting with colleges...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: The medical device industry funding equipment, a unit or personnel would not be covered by this particular Bill unless the doctor is making personal gains from it. If he or she is working within the unit, there is no material benefit. However, if he or she is charging people to use that facility, that would be seen as a gift because there would be a gain to the health care professional in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: It would be hard to argue that there would be a gift or a transfer of value if a person is just attending a lecture subsidised by a pharmaceutical company. If there is a transfer of value, for example in a situation where a GP or a clinician is getting something more than education or information from it, it would have to be declared. If they are merely attending an evening I would suggest...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2017: Discussion (6 Dec 2017)

Billy Kelleher: The Chairman raised an important point and this is why it should be teased out. The last thing one wants to do is sterilise interactions between research, pharmaceutical industries, academia, etc. People should not have to count the number of glasses of wine they had wondering if they had tipped over the threshold of €600.

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