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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: The audit would suggest that perhaps if not in those particular instances but in others, there was some form of informal sanction given for those payments. We have correspondence from St. Vincent's Hospital dated 29 October and 19 November addressed to Mr. Barry O'Brien. Am I correct to presume that Mr. O'Brien responded to these letters?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: We will take this one step at a time. Mr. O'Brien received quite a lengthy letter on 29 October 2013?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: He then received a further letter on 19 November to which he did not reply. I am trying to establish the facts.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Do we have sight of that letter?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: That would have added to the completeness of the information. Mr. O'Brien then received a further letter from Mr. John McPhillips, director of HR dated 19 November 2013. Did Mr. O'Brien respond to him on that occasion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Is this the document from 27 September 2013?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I appreciate that, yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Certainly.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Certainly and that is the position as and from three months ago and no doubt, that is what the Department will seek to achieve going forward. I am not questioning that. We are now looking back on arrangements that were struck, payments that were made and contracts that were signed in the past. I am suggesting to Dr. McLoughlin, as is validated in the audited report, that there was...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I would encourage them to do so. The audit does not specify examples. I should emphasise that in one of its key findings on remuneration rates it refers to instances where "senior management salary rates differed" and to agencies. The fact that the report refers to instances and agencies in the plural suggests that more than one agency reported this particular experience. I am inclined,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is worth stating for the record that it is very clear from the report that it was Department of Health approval. I do not know if that indicates that these arrangements or discussions happened prior to the establishment of the HSE. I am not sure if that is the case but perhaps Mr. O'Brien would like to comment on that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Can I ask Mr. O'Brien, for the purposes of clarity, what document he is quoting from?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: For the information of this committee, what is the date of issue of that document?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is the same circular letter to which Dr. McLoughlin referred. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Does Mr. O'Brien understand that my question refers to events, actions and oversight - or the lack of it - prior to September 2013?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: We can come to the policy later. I am asking Mr. O'Brien to step back in time because these controversies and breaches occurred well before 27 September 2013. The circular letter of that date and the work we are doing now represent remedial action to clean up the mess. The mess occurred prior to September 2013.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Is Mr. O'Brien saying that whatever about the Department of Health, which he does not represent, as far as the HSE is concerned, there were no understandings on the side, no nod-and-wink arrangements or informal sanctioning of any of these breaches?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Where is that conclusion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Perhaps we could finish with this point first. I am sorry to cut across Ms. Spillane.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Okay. That is the audit report.

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