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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
(20 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Will you or Mr. McDonagh say something about Mr. John Fraher? This case was a cause of some public comment earlier this year, I understand.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
(20 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am sure you can agree that the complaint was of a most serious nature.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
(20 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am raising it with you for two purposes, the first being that, whatever about the particulars of the turn of events that we are discussing here, it is not the first time that a complaint has been made in respect of NAMA’s handling of personal information, of business data. The second is that while I understand the pride you take in your organisation, which is very worthy, you are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: And I take Dr. McLoughlin's assurances. I would not ask him to operate on the basis of hearsay. I was not offering hearsay. I was quoting from a HSE internal audit report.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I am sure Dr. Smith has indicated that she will pass on the names of those agencies. I raised the issue of the FEMPI legislation and the recoupment mechanism. What consideration, if any, has been given to that in the case of the section 38 agencies?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: That is a very useful clarification. Therefore, we can surmise from that that there is no legislative basis upon which the overpayments, the breaches or those sums paid to this very small number of individuals can be recouped.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Which leads us back to the difficulty that the overpayments and the breaches were financed from private funds.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Did human resources write back on that occasion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: I would like to have seen correspondence from Mr. O'Brien to St. Vincent's hospital quoting, as is done here, the circular of September 2013 and the provisions in the service level agreement. I assume the correspondence of 5 November did precisely that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. O'Brien is referring to a different letter. Is that not the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: It would be useful if we could see a copy of that letter. In any event, it remains the view of St. Vincent's hospital that it is compliant. The hospital concedes, however, that it is paying three senior managers above the agreed ceiling. Mr. O'Brien stated that representatives of the hospital were present at the meeting in December. Was that on 12 December?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Who attended the meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Is that Mr. Nicholas Jermyn?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Who is the chairman?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Who was the second person in attendance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. McPhillips is the person who has been in correspondence with the Health Service Executive. Were these issues raised by Mr. O'Brien at the meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Dr. Geraldine Smith will be in a position to identify which of the agencies made the assertion. That might assist us in getting clarification on the matter.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Mary Lou McDonald: Was that correspondence passed on to the Department of Health?

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