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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: We are joined by Mr. Seamus McCarthy, permanent witness to the committee, who is accompanied by Ms Paula O'Connor, senior auditor in the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Apologies have been received from Deputy McDonald. Are the minutes of our meeting of 1 February agreed? Agreed. Next on our agenda is an issue that I wish to discuss arising from the minutes....

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: Yes, across Departments. In addition to that, because I was conscious of the fact that the Department of Education and Skills, the teachers, and the Garda Síochána were not included in that figure, I asked the Comptroller and Auditor General about it. He said that in regard to the Garda Síochána, prisons, education and Army pensions, there is another €8 million in...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: Just let me finish putting the facts on the record and we will discuss it then because the full picture did not emerge the last day. We then have the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, which has €3.2 million in uncollected overpayments. That is an average of €2,177 per person. The total figure for the Garda Síochána supplied by the Comptroller...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: So the HSE figure-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: So the HSE Vote is for the last two years.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: The HSE figure, which is 110,000 public servants, is not captured here at all. The first thing we will do today is write to the HSE for the overpayments figure for 2016 and 2017 in respect of all HSE staff. I have no doubt that will bring up the figure. Members will understand that I decided to follow this up as a result.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: No, Deputy, it is the other way around. This is staff who have been overpaid salary and owe the Department money.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: This is not money due to the staff.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: No. Generally, these are people who were on sick leave. It took a fortnight for the paperwork to come through and they were paid for two weeks they should not have been paid for or holidays that were taken without being properly notified and there was a catch-up. It is those type of issues. The Haddington Road agreement and those type of agreements are not connected with this at all....

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: Yes. They might now have to recalculate the figures based on the higher pay rates.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: On the old figures.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy is quite right. The figure could be higher.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: That list of agencies is in the chapter from last week-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: -----but the big areas not included, and we went through this, are the HSE, local authorities, the Department of Education and Skills, the Garda Síochána and the Army. They are the big areas, and the Oireachtas.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: The National Shared Services Office.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: There are; we just got the 40 Votes, the appropriation accounts. None of the State agencies under every Department are included in this figure. This is strictly the departmental Votes.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: Organisations such as Horse Racing Ireland or Bord na gCon are not yet included in this figure.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: A special report.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: They are overpayments.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (8 Feb 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy is correct that it is the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

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