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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Is the National Development Finance Agency acting on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills, or is it both?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: The independent tester needs to satisfy the NDFA that the works have been satisfactorily carried out to the standards laid down under the Building Control Act. Will Mr. Cahillane inform the committee whether that includes not only the works being carried out by Woodvale - the company now tasked with finishing the works commenced by Sammon via Carillion - but also the works being carried out...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Is the assigned certifier operating to normal standards, including having to hand all of the relevant documentation required in line with the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014 standards?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Is the State normally happy with a single certifier certifying all of the different works, given the range of complexities and works involved in these school construction projects?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Where has it been used before?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: In all previous 25 PPP contracts did the independent assessor certify and validate that the works had been carried out by the subcontractors in accordance with the BCAR standards?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: The point is that was not the case in previous circumstances. Part D of the Building Control Regulations 2013, the section which deals with technical guidance on materials and workmanship, reads:Materials, including products, components, fittings, items, equipment and back-filling for excavations. Materials should be of a suitable nature and quality in relation to purpose and conditions of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: I have met with numerous subcontractors here. Some of the companies I have met with, which have operated for a number of generations, are about to go into liquidation themselves because of the collapse of Carillion and Sammon Contracting, and the fact they will not be paid. When one speaks to the principals of these family-owned companies, it sticks in their craw that the State will benefit...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: I am aware Woodvale has reached out to a number of the subcontractors. I am also aware that there are a number of the subcontractors who have no relationship with Woodvale at this point in time. The system the State has put together has left it at the mercy of a contractor to decide whether it wants to reach out to the subcontractor. Those whom they have reached to will obviously get paid,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: I understand that. Under the law, the subcontractors must certify that their work is done in accordance with the Building Control Act. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Under the law there is also an independent assessor process as well. We have a dual guarantee. We understand that. I worked on construction sites for a number of years after leaving college. One can be on the site and make inspections but one might not know exactly how something has been stored, temperatures of storage and all the required details. Sometimes this can go wrong. We have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: It is not just an issue of being paid and finding out at a later stage that there are cracks in walls or flooring is starting to lift, etc. Perhaps the football field might not be put in at the proper standard or the drainage might not work. There is an issue of law. Under the Building Control Act there is a requirement on the subcontractor to certify its work. The argument we will hear...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. Has the NDFA sought legal opinion on the process agreed at this point?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Have the witnesses examined the European Construction Products Regulation to see if it is compatible with the process under way?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: I believe the witnesses' comments that they have empathy for people who use their own skills for manual labour to build pitches and schools. Arising from a mess not of their creation, they have been left high and dry and hundreds of thousands of euro out of pocket. They are unlikely to get that benefit but the State will get the benefit of their labour when the schools open in September. Is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: I understand that. That is where the mess is in all of this. There is a liquidation process and then there is a construction process which is still under way in respect of these three schools currently and which will commence in respect of others later on. Surely we can develop some type of process which would allow the contractor to engage with the subcontractors and which would ensure...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: The company is doing it with certain subcontractors, particularly subcontractors that would have had a role in design.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: If they are dealing with something mechanical, for example, and there is an element of design to it, no independent person can sign off on somebody else's intellectual property. It just cannot be done; therefore, it must engage with the subcontractor, even though the subcontractor has a claim against the Salmon Group. It is doing it because it has to in that case; however, it is not doing...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: There is a serious risk that the NDFA is in breach of the law with regard to what is to happen. The Building Control Act stipulates clearly that the subcontractors must certify that their work is up to standard. We are creating environments in which children will be running around for up to eight hours a day where we will not have that certification. We have a secondary safeguard - the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Role and Operation of National Development Finance Agency: Discussion (3 Jul 2018)

Pearse Doherty: Into what is Mr. Cahillane going to look? He has said he will come back to us on a legal opinion on the Building Control Act and whether it is legal to have a single certifier to certify all of the work in the absence of subcontractors doing the work. Is that the case? Will he, please, correct me if I am wrong?

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