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Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: It is down to cost. Did the HSE pay for legal advice on the position that it took when one of the individuals intended to go to court to be appointed the committee of this person?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: You stalled that process. Your advice was not do this.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: How much did the legal advice cost?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: Yes, and what was the cost?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: No, for all of the advices received. I asked the question earlier and I draw Mr. Healy's attention to the note of €44 million. Obviously, therefore, the HSE spends significant amounts of money on legal advice. Can someone give me the breakdown of the cost of legal advice regarding this case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: It relates to 2009 onwards.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: Obviously the HSE still has legal representatives in place, so is it fair to ask how much has been spent up to now on the legal team for this case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: Why?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: The reason I ask that question is that it seems that from 2009 onwards, when there were various reports, the HSE contested the issue of the committee appointed to represent this person, in that it was of the view that it should not happen. Then, when various requests were made under freedom of information, it went to considerable lengths not to give the information. In fact, there were...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: To this date, the results of those investigations have not been given to that person. There is a cost factor involved in respect of legal representation which continues to mount. Mr. O'Brien specifically raised this issue in his opening remarks and went into some detail about it and yet, because we are the Committee of Public Accounts, he did not see fit to bring that figure here although...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: I know that. I have it all here. I have the names and how they were selected. I support Deputy Deasy in his remarks that this is an effort by the HSE to cover up what went on. Referring it to the Garda is just a method of prolonging it. In the correspondence I have here, the HSE refers to "the final report". The HSE has never published that final report. It has never even gone to the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: One second.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: Individuals or families are being interviewed and the report I have had from one of the families on how they were treated is shocking. I must ask about the professionalism of the HSE's approach to this, about the fact that it has gone on since 1992, the legal costs, the costs of stonewalling the whistleblowers, and the cost of stonewalling the release of information through the freedom of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: For the record, I want to make it clear that a protected disclosure was made to me as a Member of this House with all the supporting documentation. On 18 February 2015 I went to Pearse Street Garda station and made that disclosure. I have not heard a single word from the Garda since then, even though I was given a story involving these young adults who could not verbalise, as Deputy Deasy said.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: I am shocked that this has not been brought to a conclusion by the HSE. So many matters regarding the funding and everything else have been raised here this morning that I want to ask for a complete report on costings dating back to the beginning, with an indication as to who approved the various reports, who authorised them, how they came about and so on, so that we can clearly understand...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: I ask the HSE officials to record also that a complaint made by the whistleblower to the Department of Health about individuals at local level was actually sent back to those same individuals. From start to finish, there have been serious problems of governance affecting families and resulting in financial cost.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: That is not what is being suggested.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: It is not an interpretation; it is just factual. Deputy Deasy has suggested that because of the delay from 1992 to date and because there are serious issues from a health perspective and a financial perspective there should be an independent and immediate inquiry to conclude what needs to be done. That is the point in that regard. Does Deputy Perry have another matter to raise?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: That is not what happened.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

John McGuinness: Sometimes it is difficult to extract information.

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