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Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Is that because of the nature of multinational companies?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I am looking at Figure 2C.1 in the Comptroller and Auditor General's special chapter. It gives a definition of gross national income and GNI*. Can the Comptroller and Auditor General take us through that from his perspective?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: As a percentage of that debt, how much of it is accounted for by the EU-IMF programme loan balance?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: It is approximately 25% of the overall debt.

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Essentially, we still have very high debt levels. We hear about a recovering economy but would Mr. Moran agree that we have to be careful in terms of how we spend money? At budget time we have debates in the political sphere regarding how we spend money on cutting taxes and so forth, but as we still have a high level of debt compared with other countries would he agree that we need to be...

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: The point is that we report on the basis of GDP. The difficulty is that the outworking of the rules is based on figures which are not reliable.

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: That is an extraordinary position for the State and for policy at such an important level. The fiscal compact rules have a big impact on how much money the State has to spend. We each have our own view as to whether the fiscal rules are too rigid or otherwise - there was a referendum on that point - but they are the rules in place. That is the legal requirement. It is extraordinary that...

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: However, we must rely upon it.

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: It is not just for reporting purposes. If it was just for reporting purposes, that would be fine because in a report one can have debt-to-GDP, debt-to-GNI, debt-to-GNI* and so on. That is fine. However, it is not just for reporting; it is for the implementation of rules which have an impact on my job and that of Deputies Catherine Murphy and Catherine Connolly, as legislators, in terms of...

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Is GNI* an Irish phenomenon? Is it a bespoke Irish measurement?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I wish academics well in the work that they do.

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Absolutely. I wish academics well and I am sure it is very interesting for them. However, policy makers are key to this issue. Has there been any interaction between the Department of Finance or the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the European Commission in regard to using GNI*? If it is the accepted position of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, and the Secretary...

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: What was the response of the European Commission in that regard?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: What does EUROSTAT use?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: EUROSTAT, yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Moran is aware that the calculations of EUROSTAT have an impact on all sorts of issues, including whether or not spending or borrowing can be on the State balance sheet. That has been a challenge for us in the past. EUROSTAT uses GDP rather than GNI or GNI*.

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I did not support the fiscal compact treaty for that very reason. I agree that that is a problem with standardised rules.

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Have we asked for a break from the fiscal rules or should they be amended?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: The logic of that position is that we should break from the fiscal rules. If the Commission tells Mr. Moran and the Minister for Finance that it is sorry but GDP is the figure it uses, does Mr. Moran think we should break from the rules?

Public Accounts Committee: Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2016
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(19 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Moran stated that the Commission is looking at this favourably. However, if it says that although it is very interesting that Ireland has a bespoke GNI* measurement, it is not allowed and GDP is the sole measurement to be used, what happens then?

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