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Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I would like to continue in the area of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Perhaps I might come back in after he has contributed.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Is anyone from outside the public sector represented on the implementation body?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: The agreement on work practices, pay and so on is in the national interest, yet the implementation body includes no member from outside the public sector.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: The group's trade union members are acting in the interests of their unions' members.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I can only consider the progress made through the eyes of the implementation body. If its members were acting in particular interests that are not necessarily in the national interest, I would not be able to tell from their conclusions or recommendations. For example, we discussed the Government-appointed board members of banks and how they had worked in the interests of shareholders rather...

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I do not doubt the changes made. My point concerns a potential conflict of interest or objective bias. A union representative on the body might decide to work in the national interest, but one cannot get around the fact that he or she has an objective bias, given his or her background. Should the body have a member from outside the public sector?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: As the independent chairman, would Mr. Fitzpatrick find it more helpful to have external eyes?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Again-----

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: We are straying into an area that Mr. Fitzpatrick cannot discuss further.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I wish to discuss the methodology for calculating pay and non-pay savings and the overestimation in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Yes. The Department underestimated the savings achieved because it did not agree with the calculation guidelines which were subsequently factored in by Grant Thornton.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: The Department believed it needed to use the regulatory impact analysis, RIA, guidelines. Its opinion was that the guidelines that were meant to be used overestimated savings because of the additional figure of 40%.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I understand the mid-point issue. I wish to discuss the 40% allocation for non-pay costs. According to the guidelines devised by the public sector, the savings in moving people out of an office are calculated by adding an additional 40% of salary to take account of factors such as-----

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Yes. While the 40% allocation was in line with Department of Finance guidelines, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine considered it excessive when compared with the actual costs incurred. Are the numbers for savings inflated by as much as 40%? If the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine does not agree with the guidelines, why are we using them?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Is the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine stating it does not believe the guidelines as good? Grant Thornton-----

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Grant Thornton's report reads: "We are satisfied that the reasons for undervaluing the declared savings are adequate and understandable". Grant Thornton seems to be stating that, while it agrees with the initial estimates, it was required to increase the estimates in line with the Department of Finance guidelines. We are building our savings when one Department does not believe they are...

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: It was in line with the calculation guidelines because they were told to do so by the Government. The guidelines inflated the savings by 40% according to the people in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I cannot understand it. When we discuss-----

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: As the independent chairman, does Mr. Fitzpatrick have an opinion on the guidelines for calculating pay levels?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I have spoken to accountants who might be regularly involved in this kind of work. They work for one of the big houses. They stated they would not make calculations in this way. When one reads Appendix 7 of the 2009 guidelines, overheads comprise the total staff cost, plus 40%. "Overheads" can be defined in any number of ways.

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