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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I want to make the point that I am happy to go along with whatever rule so long as we all understand it but if, for example, it is a question that the Chairman will be looking back at rotation, one does not get a fair reflection if members have not turned up and one is filling in.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: That aspect has to be captured if we are to have a fair system, not only just for now but for the future as well because we could all turn up for something for an hour and not do all of the work. That frequently happens and there is a sizable amount of work in the Committee of Public Accounts.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I have two issues I want to raise and we may come back to them next week. Is there any update on the issue that Deputy MacSharry raised about the committee of oversight for IBRC? We are talking about a very large amount of money. Mr. McCarthy might remember there is a court issue and there was to be some consideration given to whether there could be a more satisfactory arrangement whereby...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: This is the largest liquidation in the history of the State. The oversight of it is with the Department of Finance as opposed to being supervised by the courts. It is a big issue and sometimes we deal with issues that are relatively small, in monetary terms in comparison with something like this. This is a big item and I am unhappy that we have not arrived at a conclusion at this stage...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: All right.

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I welcome the witnesses. I have not met the new CEO. We have been in correspondence but we have not formally met. I wish him well. I realise he is accounting for things that happened before his time. I acknowledge the huge demographic pressures in both Kildare and Wicklow. A very sizeable staff is employed by the Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, KWETB, and the education...

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: One of the big changes that must be demonstrated is a change in culture. Being very open to criticism of the organisation itself is part of that. It certainly seemed that there were efforts by some members of the board to raise issues. These issues were calmed down or the wagons were circled. That appeared to me to be the case. I hope very much that there is now a very open culture in...

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: That includes being open to criticism from within.

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: That has to be part of the culture. I know we are going to be very short of time. I want to go back to some of the points that have been made on the 2012 report and expand on them. Was Mr. Ó Foghlú in the Department in 2012 when that report was issued by the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: At what point did Mr. Ó Foghlú become the Accounting Officer?

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: As such it was just after that. Was Mr. Ó Foghlú in the role when the redeployment was signed off on?

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Was he aware of the 2012 report's findings on the Kildare Vocational Education Committee, VEC, at that point?

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: As such, he made the redeployment in the knowledge that the report existed, and knowing that there were shortcomings.

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I will mention a couple of things from that report. There was €1.9 million of expenditure on ICT equipment. Somebody who had previously worked on the VEC on a short-term basis got that contract. A second issue I want to pick up comes under the report's statement of the views of the Department of Education and Skills. The report stated that the Department would continue to insist on...

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Did it make any difference? Some of the same issues have emerged around procurement and the code of governance. Would Mr. Ó Foghlú accept that it did not make a difference? The most recent report has resulted in some of the issues not being open to discussion by the committee, by virtue of the fact a Garda investigation is ongoing.

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Should we have confidence in the Department's ability not only to issue codes of practice, but follow up on them? When we look at this example, what should give us confidence that any new code of practice will be adhered to any better?

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: It is supported by an internal audit service. In our deliberations last week that was seen to be inadequate. There are several-----

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: The inadequate internal audit in terms-----

Public Accounts Committee: Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements 2015 (21 Feb 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I mean inadequate not in terms of the individuals, but in terms of the capacity.

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