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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: What did it find?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: If we leave aside the good faith aspect which is important, it also noted that there were systemic failures in how the Department categorised and filed emails. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: It also found that the weaknesses and failures had led to non-disclosure of relevant emails. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I am citing the report to Ms McPhillips. I am reading from the report. It showed, "Systemic failures which resulted in the non-disclosure of relevant emails".

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: What changes have been made since to make sure it will not happen again?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Ms McPhillips might send a note to the committee outlining the work that has been done and what will be done and perhaps the timeframes within which we might have some closure on some of these issues and see real, tangible changes that will make a difference.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Teachta Alan Kelly asked about what had and had not been disclosed. I understand Ms McPhillips told him that emails within the Department relevant to the issues that had been sought by the commission had been sent but not private phone records or private emails. Is that the reply she gave?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: They are outside Ms McPhillips' control. Only departmental emails were sent.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I want to move on to the question of direct provision. Is that Mr. Dowling's area of responsibility? Did he answer questions about it earlier?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I will put the questions to Ms McPhillips. If any of her colleagues can provide any more detail, that would be great. Teachta Jonathan O'Brien asked questions about this. There are 28 centres in total. Is that correct? That is the figure that was given.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I will follow on from Teachta Jonathan O'Brien's questions. There are seven State-owned facilities that could act as direct provision centres. Is it the case that there are 28 private centres because the State does not have the capacity to deliver more? Perhaps it might not have buildings available. Is that why there are 28 private centres?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: So the demand -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: So it is about demand, and it might be easier and quicker to outsource it in order to get a centre up and running.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: Is there a service level agreement between the Department and these 28 centres?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: What do these service level agreements -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I will give Ms McPhillips some of my experience of these centres, which I have raised with one of her predecessors -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: ---- and I might raise it again in order to familiarise Ms Phillips with it. I have never been barred from anything in my life but I was barred from a reception centre in Waterford.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: I will recall it again because it is still a sore point for me and the people I represent who asked me to go to that centre. I was asked to come in my capacity as a councillor by residents of the centre who had established a residents' association. I arrived at the time they had asked me and the centre manager told me that because I had not been given her permission, I was not allowed to be...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: They are commercial premises that house people -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

David Cullinane: ----- and that get taxpayers' money. There are real concerns that in years to come we will look back at how people living in direct provision centres may have been treated. I do not think the State will emerge smelling of roses.

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