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Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: No. This states, "We believe this exchange is a clear example of IBRC's lack of regard for the Minister's wishes." It goes on then to state, "There have been other instances where senior management in IBRC have shown similar disregard for the spirit of the Relationship ...". It is fairly strong language in the context of a briefing note. Indeed, in terms of the request to increase the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: IBRC's attitude to the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: That is how Ms Nolan saw it. The briefing note then goes on to deal with the appointment of non-executive directors, which was suggested in November 2010, stating "and despite a letter issuing to you to progress the appointments in January it has taken until June for the Board to approve appointment". This was a bank that was clearly born out of trouble and was in trouble, showing absolute...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: No, it was not. The Department's briefing, dated July 2012, centred around, for example, remuneration issues. It describes a request, "Approval sought for an appointment", and stated, "Proposed salary was almost 40% more than [the] equivalent" in other banks. For an interim head of internal audit, they sought approval, but "Appointment did not proceed". For an internal head of HR,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: I saw that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: There was not much else and IBRC was taking its own course of action. It seems that the Department had to fight with it all the way. It was comparing IBRC to NAMA and suggesting what should happen about salaries, but that did not happen. The Department then went on to raise issues about various sales. Its position was that a number of governance concerns had arisen from a particular...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: It was too late.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: That was after the event. Ms Nolan outlines in the confidential note that despite the concerns of the Department, IBRC conducted a nine-month sale process and the Department believed significant value was lost in this transaction.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Why did the Department state in the note that it believed significant value had been lost? If it had been blocked, how did the Department lose?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: The note states the Department did.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Why then is it stated in the briefing document?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Let me read it. Perhaps my English is not great. It states: “We believe significant value was lost in relation to this transaction.” I can only be briefed on the paperwork in front of me.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Is Ms Nolan telling me that it is wrong?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Ms Nolan goes on to refer to Blackstone. What is stated about Quinn has been completely redacted.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Ms Nolan says it resulted in high level political scrutiny and public concern which might have been avoided if the matter had been managed. She suggests it was badly managed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Ms Nolan says in relation to Siteserv that the Department had serious concerns. What I am trying to point out is that if the Department had serious concerns, the concerns referred to something that had happened, not something that was going to happen. Reference is made to Topaz and it stated the Department was approached by it. I do not know what that means. The advice was that concerns...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Why did Topaz approach the Department and what were its concerns?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: The next reference is to Apthorp. The note states the sub-optimum communication between senior management and the board had led to misinformed decision making.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Does that not show that the Department thought the deal had been done when the note was written? There was no communication between the Department and IBRC and a lot of concern was being expressed by departmental officials.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John McGuinness: What were the qualifications of the officials dealing directly with IBRC?

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