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Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: When did Mr. Breslin become aware of the circular that was subject to a lot of discussion this morning? I refer to the one given to consultants giving discretion in regard to whether patients should be told.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is it acceptable? Mr. Breslin is actually the Accounting Officer for all health expenditure. The director general of the HSE, I understand, is an accountable officer.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Breslin is the Accounting Officer. Does he find it acceptable that his reading about this in The Irish Timeswas the first time he became aware of it?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Who did not give Mr. Breslin sufficient information?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Only CervicalCheck? Has the HSE a duty to give Mr. Breslin the information?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Exactly. I do not draw a distinction but the director general certainly did this morning.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Let us say it is the corporate body that is the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: It is the HSE. The HSE has a responsibility to give Mr. Breslin information that is pertinent so he may use that information and his judgment to decide whether it should be given to the Minister.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Breslin, as Accounting Officer for all expenditure in the health service, including, I would imagine, HSE expenditure, because the director general is only an accountable officer, read about the matter in The Irish Times.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is that a systemic failure?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is it a systemic failure?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: There was a pattern. It dates back to 2014, when the audit was first done, and when the circular was issued. At no point was the Department ever informed of any of that. Therefore, there was a pattern. What I am saying is that Mr. Breslin found out only when this became public. He found out not only when it became public but when it was a crisis for the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Exactly. Therefore, it has to be systemic. Like the director general, I am really frustrated with the public service because all of us here are dealing with and watching women in a very distressed state. Reference was made earlier to the poor woman on "Morning Ireland" this morning and to how harrowing her story was. We are here to ask questions on the women's behalf. These women were...

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I expect Mr. Breslin, as a public servant, to be in a position to say this was a systemic failure. Everybody outside this place believes it was a systemic failure. It is an open-and-shut case. There is nobody in the real world who believes this was not a systemic failure, except Accounting Officers who are not prepared to use the words. I cannot understand why Mr. Breslin, as an...

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Given what Mr. Breslin now knows, does he believe it was a systemic failure?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I am going to press Mr. Breslin on this because I believe people watching and the women who are affected deserve an answer. Does Mr. Breslin believe it was a systemic failure?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is that a "No" or a "Yes"?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: More fudge-----

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: It is fudge, with respect. Mr. Breslin should be in a position to say, as would anyone with half a brain cell, that this was a systemic failure. However, for reasons which are very obvious, he is not in a position to say it. I find that deeply disturbing given what we are talking about here and given that we are dealing with grieving women who are very upset and who were let down by the...

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I think that Mr. Breslin is hiding behind words.

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