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Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: The total overpaid was €1.132 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: The question that arises is what was the highest single overpayment in both years. Will Ms O'Donoghue provide that figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: That is for 2014?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: On a point of clarification, Ms O'Donoghue spoke earlier about flexibility in relation to the housing needs throughout the country. I have to say that I do not see that flexibility in operation. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I have seen, through the work that comes through my constituency office, tenants who have been in rented accommodation getting into an argument over the level of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: That is not the point. The point is I can give Ms O'Donoghue specific cases. Deputy Deasy said earlier on that he would give her specific cases. I do not want to deal with specific cases. I want Ms O'Donoghue to understand that what I am telling her happens through my constituency office. Other members can tell her whether or not it happens through theirs, but that has been my...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Ms O'Donoghue is pointing, which I would expect her to do, to the success of the 2,000. I have to point her to the fact that there are others in hotel accommodation who have not been successful and that the flexibility simply is not there. I am asking that some connection be made between her Department, whoever deals with it, and the local authority to insist that the flexibility be put in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Will Ms O'Donoghue give us the name of the person within her Department to whom public representatives can write and send on the information that will have come to hand?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: The second point being made by Deputy Nolan was in relation to CE schemes. Does Ms O'Donoghue's Department fund the individuals on the CE scheme? Does it fund the materials they use on the CE scheme, or does that come from somewhere else?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Okay. I will give an example. These all come from my recent canvass of the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency during the by-election, in the weeks that I was there.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: One individual who went from jobseeker's allowance to a scheme in County Kilkenny ended up being paid less on the scheme than he was when he was on jobseeker's allowance. He is married with one child. I am going to give Ms O'Donoghue his payslip now. Would that happen often? Should they be on a level of allowance that is equivalent to what they were on or more, or how is it affected?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Yes, but he is actually on less. The other thing I came across was the fact that when they went onto the scheme, they brought their own lawnmowers, sweeping brushes and safety gear, because there was no money in the scheme to pay for any of it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: They are the figures and that is the analysis, but I have just outlined the reality of one individual and the reality of one scheme. I have spoken to all of the participants, and I found it extraordinary to see them in their own hazard jackets with their own sweeping brushes and so on. They tell me they do not have the money to fulfil the requirements that are there in terms of the extent...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: I will give it to Ms O'Donoghue, but the fact of the matter is that she presents analysis here, but I have given an example of quite a large scheme where they bring their own equipment. They hardly have money to put diesel into the lawnmowers they are using to cut the grass, and they tell us that there is no money in the scheme. There is something wrong with that model if that is the case....

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Could Ms O'Donoghue give us the actual figures for overpayments under the different headings for 2013? Could she give them in money terms rather than percentage terms?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: For example, in jobseeker's-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: The figure for fraud and error has been identified using a percentage.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Yes; €93 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: Will Ms O'Donoghue translate that for the ordinary man or woman watching these proceedings? I am looking at the figures here and it states that the gross rate of fraud and error identified by this survey was 4.6% of expenditure, with a net rate of 3.1%. What I want is the value of that. Am I right in saying it is €96 million?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: I should have that figure.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 10 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 11 - Control of Supplementary Welfare Allowances
Chapter 12 - Farm Assist
Social Insurance Fund 2013
(28 May 2015)

John McGuinness: That is what I am getting to. I want to know the figure. I am sure that anyone listening to this debate would want to know the figures.

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