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Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: In terms of this issue, it certainly would be shared. Is it not the case that it was only 20 minutes before the Minister, Deputy Harris, took to his feet to give a very important speech to the Dáil on this issue that he found out that not all the patients who developed cancer were subject to the audit? It was only at that point that he was made aware of it.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Why was it inaccurate?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I understand that. Why was it inaccurate?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Who gave that false information?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: The CervicalCheck programme, yet the HSE director general said at a meeting of the health committee that it was commonly known within the HSE that that was the case.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: It is quite incredible, however, that it was so widely known within CervicalCheck while, it seems, not so widely known within the HSE, and not known to the Department, which is the body that reports to the Minister. At the end of the day, the Minister is accountable to the Dáil and the people. If the Minister is not being given pertinent and important information, that is a problem....

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: When did Mr. Breslin become aware of the circular that was subject to a lot of discussion this morning? I refer to the one given to consultants giving discretion in regard to whether patients should be told.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is it acceptable? Mr. Breslin is actually the Accounting Officer for all health expenditure. The director general of the HSE, I understand, is an accountable officer.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Breslin is the Accounting Officer. Does he find it acceptable that his reading about this in The Irish Timeswas the first time he became aware of it?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Who did not give Mr. Breslin sufficient information?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Only CervicalCheck? Has the HSE a duty to give Mr. Breslin the information?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Exactly. I do not draw a distinction but the director general certainly did this morning.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Let us say it is the corporate body that is the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: It is the HSE. The HSE has a responsibility to give Mr. Breslin information that is pertinent so he may use that information and his judgment to decide whether it should be given to the Minister.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Breslin, as Accounting Officer for all expenditure in the health service, including, I would imagine, HSE expenditure, because the director general is only an accountable officer, read about the matter in The Irish Times.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is that a systemic failure?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is it a systemic failure?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: There was a pattern. It dates back to 2014, when the audit was first done, and when the circular was issued. At no point was the Department ever informed of any of that. Therefore, there was a pattern. What I am saying is that Mr. Breslin found out only when this became public. He found out not only when it became public but when it was a crisis for the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Exactly. Therefore, it has to be systemic. Like the director general, I am really frustrated with the public service because all of us here are dealing with and watching women in a very distressed state. Reference was made earlier to the poor woman on "Morning Ireland" this morning and to how harrowing her story was. We are here to ask questions on the women's behalf. These women were...

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I expect Mr. Breslin, as a public servant, to be in a position to say this was a systemic failure. Everybody outside this place believes it was a systemic failure. It is an open-and-shut case. There is nobody in the real world who believes this was not a systemic failure, except Accounting Officers who are not prepared to use the words. I cannot understand why Mr. Breslin, as an...

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