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Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Leaving aside the greater-----

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Kidd was aware that there was a high risk-----

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: -----and he still rolled over the contract each and every year.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: That is Mr. Kidd's rationale.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: He had to balance risks.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: If Mr. Kelly is saying he could give no assurance that public procurement requirements were complied with, would it be his view that in 2014, it should have gone out for tender again?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Does Mr. Kelly accept what Mr. Kidd is saying, that there was a greater risk involved?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Why would Mr. Kidd put it out for tender if there was a bigger risk involved?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: What I am asking is, what mistake was made?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Sorry, Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kidd says he had a contract.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: This is what I am trying to understand. I will put a question to Mr. Kelly now. He has published an internal audit report.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: In that report, he says, in the four areas where he gives assurances, that no assurance can be given that public procurement requirements are being complied with, and this represents a high risk.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: That is a critique of the ICT department.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Kelly is criticising the fact that not taking appropriate action, whatever that appropriate action was in his head, presented a high risk.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: What Mr. Kidd is saying is that there would have been a greater to risk to him had he done something other than what he did. Does Mr. Kelly accept that?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: How then can Mr. Kelly say he can offer no assurance that the appropriate action was being taken? He is accepting that Mr. Kidd was in a very difficult position.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Kelly did not put that in his report.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I ask Mr. Kelly to bear with me. He has a responsibility in this regard. What he is telling me today is not what is in the internal audit report. The internal audit report says that he cannot give any assurance and that there is a high risk. Now we are getting the rationale from Mr. Kidd as to why that is the case, because there may have been a greater risk. None of this is reflected in...

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I accept what Mr. Kelly has said, but what I am taking from his contribution, and that of Mr. Kidd, is that this is not ideal and should have been done differently. I read over the transcript of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality. Mr. Kidd said it is difficult to employ people directly in IT. Is that the issue?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Why could that have not been put out for re-tender so that a different company could be considered?

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