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Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: How many people sit on the committee?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: What is their job?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: What is the purpose of having an audit committee?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Let us consider what Mr. Kelly found in his audit report. It was not all a question of lack of assurance. Mr. Kelly could give assurance in some areas, to be fair. However, in areas where he was unable to give assurance, it was because he found problems.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Had Mr. Kelly not planned this audit for the reasons he did, he would not have come across these issues. How could the issues that Mr. Kelly was not in a position to give us assurance on have been missed by the internal audit section through its routine work?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I do not think that is a fair answer. The internal audit section planned to do the audits because more money would be spent. If more money was not to be spent or if those changes were not about to take place, internal audit may not have carried out the planned audits specifically looking into ICT. Is that accurate?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: That is helpful. I commend the internal audit service on the work done on this audit. I have no difficulty with that. Page 4 contains the main findings and recommendations. I wish to talk Mr. Kidd through some of these. He may be able to help me to understand some of the issues. Under the main findings and recommendations the reference to priority 1 recommendations includes the...

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: How were they engaged?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Were they employed on a contract basis?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Was that part of the contract?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: They are subcontractors, essentially. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I have all of that and I accept all of that. My point is that these subcontractors are engaged through Accenture and there is a contract with An Garda Síochána.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: It is through Accenture. Within those contracts there is an obligation to comply with timesheets.

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: The internal audit report states that some contractors engaged through Accenture do not record their hours of attendance on electronic time recording system, unlike other contractors. Is that because they use paper?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: I have that. Will Mr. Kelly indicate whether it is the case that no issues arose with regard to contractors not using either the electronic system or the paper system? Did internal audit come across any instances where no hours were recorded either on paper or electronically?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Yes, to what? Did internal audit find instances of this?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Maybe I will be clearer with my question. It is straightforward. Mr. Kidd is saying there is a contract as well as an obligation to record hours, whether electronically or through a paper trail. Mr. Kelly carried out an internal audit and reported that there was a difficulty with the recording of hours. I am asking whether there were any examples of subcontractors or people engaged...

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: Is Mr. Kelly certain on that?

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: That seems to be different from what I got earlier. I want absolute clarity on this because I have no wish for Mr. Kelly to have to come back in a few weeks' time to give a different response. I realise Mr. Kelly is conferring with someone behind him. My question is clear. Mr. Kelly is certain there are no instances of individuals who were contracted using neither the paper trail to...

Public Accounts Committee: Garda Internal Audit Report on ICT Directorate Payments Process (31 May 2018)

David Cullinane: They were employed on a project basis.

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