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Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: I thank Mr. Ó Foghlú.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: I thank Mr. Owens. May we publish Mr. Ó Foghlú and Mr. Owens's statements?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: I call Deputy Deasy.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: It is not really related.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: Mr. Ó Foghlú may give a brief reply only.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: I want to go back to the agenda and the special report but Deputy Deasy has raised an issue concerning the next meeting we will have with the Department and the Higher Education Authority. Earlier in this meeting, we decided we would ask in the presidents of the various colleges concerned along with representatives from the Higher Education Authority and the Department. I want to make...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: Can Mr. Owens tell me what changes have taken place in relation to those who serve on the boards locally?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: Current boards by comparison with the VECs.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: They are all the same.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: Let me put it a different way. There is no major change. I see the names on these committees and the names that were on the committees. For me, the only thing that has changed is the title "VEC", which has been changed to "ETB". If those who were central to all of this ignored every letter from the Department, every muttering from within the system during these years of the Wild West, how...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: We know all that.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: I just want Mr. Owens to answer one question, which he has more or less done. They have not changed that much.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: The ones we are talking about have not changed that much. Let us cut to the chase.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: That is right. Let us not bluff the people who are listening in to us. It has not changed. Mr. Owens has not ever referred to the past. Let us see what happened in the past. What was happening on the audit committees during the years when all of this was going on? Who were the members of the audit committee? Was there an accountant on the audit committee? Had it access to proper human...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: Was there an accountant on the audit committee?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: Let us be straight. There was no accountant.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: Did the individuals who served on the audit committees understand their responsibilities in terms of audit, human resource issues that might have arisen and responsibility to the Committee of Public Accounts? Have they any understanding that it was not just their domain and that it was actually taxpayers' money for which they were accountable up the chain?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: I am only interested in Cork here and now.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: I am not asking what you would have done. I am asking what was done.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 89
Internal Control in County Cork Vocational Education Committee
(9 Jul 2015)

John McGuinness: That is a little bit too late, Mr. Owens. It is not the fact that a new ETB was put in place. It is the fact that the old VEC allowed this to go on. That is what is at issue in this report. Mr. Ó Foghlú was not in the Department at the time, but perhaps he can tell us what the role of the audit committee or the VEC was? Where did they report to?

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