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Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: One of the ways Nursing Homes Ireland articulates that is by organising meetings to discuss those concerns. I refer to the meeting Teachta Connolly mentioned on 23 October 2015. Mr. Daly is absolutely right in saying that the minutes of that meeting are subject to legal privilege because that was something that was exercised by Nursing Homes Ireland. I understand there were legal...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: It was a legal note because they were at the meeting; they took notes.

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: As Mr. Daly knows that note was leaked and it was covered in most of the national newspapers. The word "boycott" was used in every publication. Three or four newspapers published the article. Mr. Daly was at the meeting. He was asked a question earlier by Teachta Connolly. He said he did not use the word "boycott". However, he was not asked whether he used it. He was asked whether the...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: Mr. Daly has not dealt with it, because what he-----

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: No. Mr. Daly can choose not to answer questions; that is no problem. However, he cannot come in and try to pull the wool over people's eyes. If he wants to not answer questions, that is entirely his prerogative. However, in not answering questions and not being upfront, in my view, it causes concern for me. He knows perfectly well he was not asked whether he used the word "boycott"...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: No matter how many times Mr. Daly trots out the line about the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, it does not make any material difference to the question I put as to whether the word "boycott" was used. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission would be investigating whether something actually happened. What is in the public domain that we know about from the leaked...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: The matter is not closed. The matter is only closed when everybody says it is closed. It might be closed for the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, but it was not closed for the Committee of Public Accounts which dealt with this in the past. We have said we might come back to it. Therefore from our perspective it is not closed because Mr. Daly is not answering the questions...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: Why was Mr. McEnery at the meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: That is not what he said when he was before the Committee of Public Accounts. Does Mr. Daly know that Mr. McEnery was before us?

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: Does Mr. Daly know that Mr. McEnery said he had a serious issue with some of the language that was used in the minutes of the meeting, and that he was going to challenge them through his legal representatives?

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: I know it is a matter for him. Mr. Daly is obviously being very defensive and that is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: If Mr. Daly characterises his answers to questions as "fully open" then I think we have an even bigger problem, because he is being anything but fully open. Many people appear before committees and for legal or other reasons decide not to answer questions. They are under no obligation. However, in doing that the witness does not get to say he is being fully open. Mr. Daly has been asked...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: That is my point. Mr. Daly is still free to answer questions. He is still free, if he wishes, to clarify for the public on behalf of his organisation whether or not the word "boycott" was used at that meeting.

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: My point is that the document itself may be privileged, but the discussion at the meeting itself is not. The document is subject to it. The witness is quite free, if he wishes, to answer questions about what he heard or did not hear at the meeting. I am not asking him what was in a document as that is subject to privilege. I am asking him, as somebody who heads an organisation, whether or...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: Did Mr. Daly hear anybody use the word "boycott"?

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: Did Mr. Daly hear anybody say it? Does he hear the question I am putting to him? If I asked him whether he used the word "boycott", then a reasonable response would be to say that he did not use the word "boycott". If I ask him whether anybody used the word "boycott", or whether he heard anybody use the word "boycott", then repeating that he did not say it is not a reasonable response. I...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: As far as the witness is concerned, he has given a response, but he has not answered the question. With respect, somebody cannot say he or she has answered a question when he or she clearly has not. I am asking for some direction from the Chair. If Mr. Daly is prepared to say that he simply cannot answer that question or he is not prepared to answer it, I will accept that. However, I will...

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: I know he is.

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: Absolutely not. I am not trying to force words out of somebody's mouth. I am saying that one cannot-----

Public Accounts Committee: Engagement with Nursing Homes Ireland (14 Jun 2018)

David Cullinane: With respect to Mr. Daly, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that if a witness is asked a direct question and he does not answer it, he cannot say that he has answered the question and has been upfront. Clearly he has not been. That is the point I am making. We have established that.

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