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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: My point is that the money is taken from the NTMA and is put somewhere else. Is it asked its opinion? Was it a Government decision and the NTMA was not asked whether it was a good or bad development?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Government policy is a matter for the Government. I am not asking Mr. O'Kelly to account for what the Government does. It can account for itself. What message are we sending out, however, that we have money in a fund that can be used for investment in areas where it is needed? What message are we sending out by taking that money out of that investment fund and putting it into a rainy day...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Is Mr. O'Kelly saying that the NTMA had not done its homework and that there were not enough projects in the pipeline on which to spend the money? That does not really tally with where the majority of the experts are at. Economists and think tanks are saying there is a dire need for increased capital investment across the economy. The NTMA, on the other hand, is saying that while that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: The NTMA has not identified enough projects, however.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: I know that. However, Mr. O'Kelly is saying there is a surplus of money which the NTMA may not be able to spend because there are not enough projects. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it, I am not saying the NTMA is wrong. The factual position is that we have X amount of money to spend and we will spend as much as we can. It is dependent, however, on having pipeline projects in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: When it is invested, it means it is spent.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: That is semantics. There are questions about the wisdom of it. However, we are not going to agree on that. We did put some questions to the HSE and the Department in respect of several court cases regarding the cervical cancer scandal, a number of which were settled recently. Are there 40 cases before the courts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: The first claim we became aware of in the public domain was Vicky Phelan's. The majority of that claim, as was presented to the committee by the Secretary General of the Department of Health, came from the lab involved but €20,000 was paid for by the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: We know in the case of Emma Mhic Mhathúna that she got a €7.5 million settlement. We were told that there was an acceptance of liability by the HSE in respect of non-disclosure. Obviously, the main liability was with the lab. Is it still the case that the breakdown of who is responsible for what has not been worked out?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Was the acceptance of liability in Emma Mhic Mhathúna's case the first time in any of the court cases that the HSE accepted liability in respect of non-disclosure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: If it was €25,000 in the first case, will that be the benchmark for all other cases?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Was that the same logic used in Emma Mhic Mhathúna's settlement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: I am not asking Mr. Breen to do that because it would be unfair. In process terms, is it up to the court to decide who pays what share of the €7.5 million settlement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: There are three cases in which the HSE accepted liability for non-disclosure. Is it correct that there are monetary payments associated with these?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: How many women were not informed in total?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Three of these women have been somewhat compensated because they took court cases for non-disclosure. What about the rest of the women in question who have not been compensated yet, given we do not have class actions in this State? Is it the case that each of these women will have no choice but to take a court case to be compensated financially for what is now an acceptance of liability? If...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Leaving aside the uniqueness, the principle has been established that the HSE accepts liability in three court cases for non-disclosure. There are 35 active court cases and I imagine the principle will hold in all 35. There may be nuances, differences and complexities associated with each because of issues such as length of time, which is fine. That will determine the level of compensation...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: I accept that, but I stop Mr. Breen there because there are a number of elements to each claim. In each claim being brought the vast majority of any award relates to the failure of the laboratory.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: We all accept that, but what I am saying is that in the HSE's case, there is now an accepted liability for a failure to disclose information to the women concerned.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: In that circumstance is there anything stopping the State from stating it will compensate each of the women concerned? Notwithstanding whether they take cases, there is an established and accepted failure. Rather than wait for them to go through the courts which they are entitled to do and separate from the fact that they can take the laboratory to court, there is an established acceptance...

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