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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: The matter was fully concluded in 2016 but we are only looking at the 2016 accounts now.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: Yes, it was ongoing and is only now being brought to a conclusion. Does Deputy O'Connell have further questions?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: The NSSO handles the payroll centrally for all Government Departments. I ask Ms McPhillips to contact the NSSO and ask for an update on the situation in her Department.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: I have a few other questions. Asylum seeker accommodation is referenced on page 24 of the report and the amount paid for same was €64 million. Ms McPhillips told us earlier that there are about 5,300 asylum seekers in the system, with approximately 80% in private accommodation. That would mean that roughly 4,220 asylum seekers are in private accommodation. Therefore, the per annum...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: On the basis of the figures provided it looks as if €12,000 is the approximate annual cost per person. Would that be a reasonable estimate?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: How much spending money, for want of a better term, does each person get? Is it €19.20 per week?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: That is in addition to the accommodation costs. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is it not paid by the Department of Justice and Equality?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: That is fine. We know asylum seekers need that allowance and there is no argument about that. I was just wondering about the figures. The €64 million is strictly for the accommodation.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: We like to give people an understanding of the figures. A figure of €64 million does not really mean anything but that works out at approximately €12,000 per person per annum or €230 per week, which is roughly in line with the State pension. Does Mr. Kirrane wish to make a point?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: Some €30 multiplied by seven is €210 and I said approximately €230, so I was very close. That is approximately where we are. That is a kind of verification. The other thing, as Deputy Aylward mentioned, is that on page 33 of the accounts, legal fees are mentioned. I am conscious that people ask about the length of stay. We have all had asylum centres in our...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: It is their right. Page 33 says that €5 million of the €7 million for legal costs, 72%, relates to the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service. For all the people who go to all the solicitors and take all the cases, the taxpayer tends to cover that cost as a result when they-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: What does that mean?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: And the legal costs if they challenge-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: Many of the people in the centres arrive here and survive on €21 per week. They take these legal challenges, and according to the witnesses, they would obviously lose in some cases, for which the State does not pay their costs. Where do these people get the money to pay private solicitors?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: Do they?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: To conclude on this, the witnesses can send us a detailed information note regarding the locations and number. They probably supply it through parliamentary questions all the time. They can include the number of locations and how many are in each, to complete our file, because we just talk globally. On a different topic for the Department of Justice and Equality, people all over rural...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is it the Garda Vote? It is not the Department's Vote at all. I will reserve that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: I will hold it over until the next meeting. The next thing I want to ask the witnesses about is the various agencies under the Department. We got a briefing note and there is a list of dozens of agencies under the remit of the Department. Has the Department a service level agreement with every one of these agencies?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am not asking any of these but am looking at-----

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